Dawn Taylor| 21/08/2024

Dawn Taylor

Hey hey hey, I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today I get to talk to one of my favorite humans on this earth, Ron Sutherland. We're going to do this a little bit different today. So, for starters, I'm not going to tell you where he works. You have to go to the Show Notes to figure that out because compliance, baby. But we're going to talk about something that has been a really big, not issue, but a confusion for me in my brain and also something that I've never really thought about. And I think a lot of people haven't, and a lot of people are lacking information on it. And so we're going to dive into some stuff. Please note in advance. None of the advice given today. Is proper advice. And what I mean by that is for compliance. Ron can't say anything. He can't agree. He can't. He can't deny because we're talking about money. We're talking about retirement. We're talking about the concepts of all of these as well. But if you are curious, at the end of this, like normal, you can go to the Show Notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca, and you can reach out to him yourself and you can get your own numbers and crunch those numbers and do what you need to do there. But let's get started. So Ron is one of my besties. He's one of my guys. We have a very hilarious story about how we openly hostile hated each other when we first met, and then got stuck in a golf cart together for a very long day of golf at a networking thing. And I think by the end, we walked away with a totally different opinion of the other person. And now we've been friends for a long time. And he's a husband. He has a beautiful wife, two kids. He has a shih tzu named Arthur, who is probably more important to him than any of the above, but he's also phenomenal when it comes to money. He has a million designations. He's a certified financial planner. He does all kinds of cool, crazy things. So definitely check them out. He's who I recommend everybody talks to, but that's all I can give you today unless you go to the Show Notes. So, welcome to the show, Ron.

Ron Sutherland

Right on. Thanks so much. Good to be here. And I guess yeah it's been, we figured it out yesterday. It's been like 8 or 9 years. We've been friends and eight and a half since we've known each other I guess.

Dawn Taylor

Right. I always laugh and people are like, how did you guys meet? How did you guys become friends? And I'm like, “We literally hated each other. And we walked up to a golf cart and realized they'd put us in a golf cart together for an entire day of golf.” And we laughed about it and we were both like, oh good grief. No. And I, I'll never forget the looks on both of our faces when we both walked up and saw that. And then by the end, we were like booking a coffee and laughing and having a blast.

Ron Sutherland

So now here we are.

Dawn Taylor

I know right all these years later. So I asked you to be on the show today because anyone who's listening to this, if you know anything about my story, you know that I really did not think I'd be here past the age of 38. Like, that was the number that was the brain aneurysm number of like, you're not going to make 20 years. So I had never thought retirement. Like, it wasn't even a concept in my mind to think retirement. And over these last six years since, which is a wild thought, you and I have had some really cool conversations about it and like, what does that look like? And how much money do you need to retire and how do you save, and where does that money come from? And how do all these things even work? But also like, what do people do for retirement? Because it's a whole thing. So let's start with some of the, I don't know, the lies, the myths, the beliefs around retirement that you hear on the regular basis that are all just kind of a pile of shit.

Ron Sutherland

I think the biggest one is that everybody has this idea in their mind that you need to have $1 million in the bank to retire, and that I don't know where it came from. I don't know why that's the number, but, um, everybody just comes and says, okay, if I need $1 million, like, how am I going to get there? And, you know, am I on track versus other people? And that's a really tough question because we always compare ourselves to other people. But are you going to spend like other people? And a lot of the time that I talk to people, they say, well, how much do I need to retire? So what are you going to spend in retirement? Well, I don't know yet. How am I supposed to know what you need? And so that's, that's one of the kind of the funniest questions I get is, you know, how much do I need? But I don't know what I'm going to spend, because that's kind of a math thing. And if we don't know what we're going to spend in retirement, how am I or any other advisors supposed to figure out how much you need?

Dawn Taylor

So how would somebody figure that out? So, like, Chad and I have been having this conversation because now we are working on like, “Oh, hey, we're in our mid 40s and we've never done a damn thing for retirement. And now we need to figure this out because, hey, what if we're not actually going to die anytime soon? And according to medical doctors, we're thriving. So we need to start saving.” And you and I have had that conversation of like, what is life going to look like later and what are your priorities? And so for us, like we aren't traveling to go visit our children, we don't have kids, we're not needing to deal with any of those things, but also we don't have kids, so we probably need a little bit more money in an account for the seniors home we're going to have to pay for and those sorts of things, but also like health being a massive priority, we will put more money into health things than an average person, or travel. What are some key things that people should be thinking about when it comes to retirement?

Ron Suterhland

Well, I think with you and Chad with, you know, other people that don't have kids, one of the big things we chat about is, um, if it's going to be the two of you and it's always going to be the two of you, do you want to use that travel budget now, or do you want to use it in retirement and using it now? You know your great health, sound mind. You can go, you're more active, you can go do more things. So why not start to do some of that along the way? And then by the time that you get to retirement, maybe you don't want to do those big trips anymore. And it's just kind of, um, slowing down. And then that pocket that could have been for the legacy piece of leaving it to children can now be the long term care costs or the, um, you know, the hospital or the, um, care facility that you kind of mentioned. So it's kind of a balancing act between - are we saving everything for retirement that we're not really sure what that's going to look like, or do we want to have some experiences along the way? And I know that for you and Chad, like, well, you specifically, you like the experiences, you like to travel, you like to drive them along to these things. And he just kind of goes along with the ride and enjoys it. Um, and I think that's really great. And I try to with my, people that are the dual incomes with no kids just say like, hey, enjoy it along the way, like enjoy the journey. Because if you get to 65 and you have all this money, but you don't have your health and you don't have ways to spend it, like you're going to look back and wish you would have done that traveling along the way.

Dawn Taylor

I heard this concept years ago. It's like live semi-retired til you die. And it was, it was talking to a couple that were like we just want to live semi-retired but we'll work forever. And I remember thinking like, what does that mean for you and for us? We've often talked about that. Have we made the smartest financial decisions? Oh hell no, we haven't. Should we have booked the crazy trip? Should we be booking the next one for next year? Honestly, from a financial planning standpoint, no, we probably shouldn't. We should put that money against debt or we should put that money into retirement. But it's also this piece of life is so short. And we are so aware of the fact that we're living on borrowed time. Right. And we need to live. We need to live and we need to enjoy. And you have to have a healthy balance, I think.

Ron Sutherland

And that is a big part of it. Like the, the you know, there is that thought of the financial planners. I was going to tell you to save more money and pay down debt and do all these things. But, um, the emotional side to it is saying, you know, I recognize that clients need to do those things while they're alive. And the nice thing from the mental state on the semi-retirement model is that, um, if you go out on vacation, you're still going to have a paycheck and they're still going to be more money coming in. You don't feel as guilty spending that money. Whereas when you get to retirement and you have all the money that you're ever going to have and you have no more paycheck coming in, when you go on these trips, you're worried about spending, especially if you're doing in the first two years of retirement because you're like, how long can I keep spending like this? Or, you know, I don't have an income coming in. So if there's another trip attached to it and I want to go, I don't know if I can do that. Whereas, you know, if you're doing that semi-retired thing, you know, it's just money. I'll go keep working and then I'll be able to pay it off. And, you know, if I work an extra month to go have this experience, then so be it. It's fine.

Dawn Taylor

I love thatI know this is a number that everyone thinks is totally different. But another number that I've heard a lot of. And maybe it's a myth, maybe it's not, is that 50% of people die within two years of retirement. They've lost their purpose. They've lost their will to live. I know ones that have all of a sudden decided to take up motorbikes or, you know, whatever it is. But people, there's a really crazy percentage of people that don't survive that far past retirement.

Ron Sutherland

It is. It's crazy to see. And I will say that especially through COVID, for us it was very tough because a lot of the planning that we did leading into, you know, people retiring in summer of 2020, for example. Um, a lot of people retire January 1st or a lot of people that retire kind of right to start that summer month. And for those that were retiring January 1st, that had all these kind of plans in mind of volunteering or golfing or traveling or, you know, we really try to get them to a place where they have something to do every day, or they have some habits built in, whether it's going to the gym or going out for coffee or, doing something just that's in a routine. And COVID kind of put a hard stop onto that. Like I had a client that had six different things in mind, and it was going to be golfing, volunteering and traveling and doing all this. And, you know, three months into it, she said, like, can't do any of this. Like, what am I doing with myself? And I think that that major shift affects a lot of people. And when you're not going to work and when you aren't interacting with people on a regular basis, and when no one's really depending on you to do something, um, you can get kind of lost in the noise. And so we do see a lot of kind of major health changes or people passing away and, um, you know, loss of a spouse. The second one typically passes away a couple years after, we see because it's just such a huge change in their life and in what their day to day was. So it's not a stat that I follow, but it's one that I've seen time and time again around our retirement clients. And so we really try to get in front of them on more of a regular basis than we would on those years, kind of leading up to retirement, just to have kind of that touchpoint in that, um, conversation piece so that, like, they know that somebody out there is talking to them and then they have that plan and we can kind of check in.

Dawn Taylor

Chad and I have often laughed, he took a year off. Years ago he just took, like this sabbatical year off work. And you and I've talked about this a bunch of times. Yeah, he's done some other ones. Not a full year, but he's definitely done this for other ones. So he just takes like big chunks of time off work. But this one that he took off work, it was really interesting because he started to lose his ability to talk. He lost his words. He started losing his hand-eye coordination. He started like weirdly bumping into things. And I was like, “Dude, you're physically falling apart from not working, like, what is this?” And that's always how we know. It's like time for him to even go back to work when he does take like so to put it out there, like he works very hard and he's working and then he, like, he does an entire year's worth of work in six months, and then he'll take 4 to 6 months off and. But like, that's one of the signs where I'm always like, oh no, dude, it's time. You need to call your boss to go back to work because he does. Like he literally starts to lose that. And we've talked about it in regards to like when you're not having like the grandkids to play with or you're not having those things to keep you going. And when, especially for the two of us, when we've worked so hard for so long, like we work more than the average person, both of us, to have that jarring stop of nothing. This, like this weird date, you know, this random date of like, oh, I'm 65 now. I have to retire. Now, what am I doing for the next 20, 30, 40 years? Like that actually doesn't seem enjoyable to me. Like that is not that. That does not seem like a smart life choice in my brain.

Ron Sutherland

And it's, um, we're seeing more and more people are picking up part time jobs just for the fun of it, to keep them busy. You know, you look for an example, like, you'll see people who, in retirement, who are starters at a golf course or they're working at, you know, the Wal-Mart greeters. Yeah, greeters at Walmart or, you know–

Dawn Taylor

Like, Disney. Half the employees there, I swear are Retired.

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. Or like the you know, you get into the back section of Home Depot and you've got an old guy that's happy as can be to walk you around the store for an hour. Right. And so it's, it's just it's giving them that interaction with people but also giving them, you know, I need to get up and I need to go to work, and I need to do something with myself for a while to make it kind of worthwhile. And, um, older generations seem to do really well at that. Um, I'm interested to see how our generation handles that, where, um, we do work really, really hard, but we like to play as well. And I think that, you know, from what I see, like our generation spends way more money than our parents or grandparents ever did.

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely. Yeah.

Ron Sutherland

So, it'll be interesting to see kind of come retirement, the behaviors that we go through. And if it is, you know, we're going to keep working because that's all we've known. But we have to keep working because we're spending like crazy.

Dawn Taylor

I could see that happening. So I want to talk about the concept of retirement. This whole idea of retirement. We all have this, like number in our head. And I was talking to a friend years ago and she's like, I don't know how we're going to do it. And I said, what? And she was like, I'm 50. She's like, we do not have anything saved for retirement. She's like, how are we going to come up with enough money for the next 40 years in the next 15? And I said, so work for an extra ten years. And she was like, what? And I said, weird. And so I was questioning things, right. Anytime societies like this is the rule, I'm like, hmm, I know about that. Let's challenge that and see. And so I had done a bunch of research on it years ago. And the fact that retirement actually came into effect, it was developed in Germany in 1889 by some German chancellor. And literally it was to stave off, I'll read this right from the history of retirement that I had done my research on, to stave off an uprising by young, unemployed Marxists, he decided to pay citizens aged 70 and older to leave the workforce voluntarily. And some places you find that it'll say like at 65, that is what they did. And it was literally like, we are paying you to stop working to save us money. Because we need jobs. We need jobs for people. So we're going to just, like, send you home with the paycheck, this baby paycheck for the rest of your life. And that when it came into the States, they lowered it to 65. But when this came in, people weren't living for more than 3 to 5 years post-retirement. It came in at a time where it wasn't 25, 35, 40 more years of life. Is that something that is even happening in the industry, in shifts that are happening because people aren't dying as much in their 60s anymore?

Ron Sutherland

Yeah, it's definitely like they're not dying of old age anymore. They're dying of something. And that something comes on a lot later than it used to. Right. So, um, people are living 10 to 15 years longer than, you know, what they used to live. And so I think the biggest, um, thing that I can kind of relate to is that when you think of defined benefit pensions and you think of, you know, the teachers, the municipal workers, the government workers that all have them, um, you know, you put a bunch of money in and then they shoot up this monthly paycheck to you when you get to retirement. And that goes for life. And these pensions are so expensive to run that, you know, years and years ago, a lot of people had them and now they're essentially gone, other than, you know, the people that I just named. And it's because they're so expensive and people are living so much longer that they need so much more money in them to function. And like, you look at the post office like they've got one of those pensions and people keep living and, you know, they're constantly in the need of more money for them. Um, so the retirement vehicles have also changed. So now we're seeing a lot of those defined contribution pension plans where it's I put money in my work puts money and they match it and we invest it. And then we get a big pile of money at the end of it, and then we just poke a hole in it and that's what we get. And when we run out of it, that's it. And that is easy from a forecasting side for a company to understand of, you know, how much money do we have to put into this? And so, um, we don't have the same retirement options that, you know, generations past had kind of readily at our fingertips. So everything's kind of changing that way, especially on the age side. And, um, like when you look at care facilities and the cost of care facilities now, like they're going through the roof, right? Because people just aren't dying off and they can live in these centers for 20 years. Right. And so, you know, if their mind goes with their bodies healthy, you could be in a facility for 25 years, 20 years and just be there.

Dawn Taylor

I know it's such a crazy idea. Right. And I think so. Chad and I have talked. He's like, I want to retire at the minute I can. And he's like, and you'll still be. Oh, totally. Yeah. HE just wants to retire. Right. And he's like, and you're going to work until you die. And I was like, oh, I will probably like, I'll go to work that morning. Die in the afternoon. And we we've joked about this, but there is so much pressure. And I know when I talk to people, there's so much pressure on them right now. The amount of people, even in my office that I see that like they're in their late 30s, early 40s, 50s, they're freaking out already about retirement and what that's going to look like and what those numbers look like. And we have so many generations alive at one time because no one's dying. And we're living healthier and healthier and healthier, longer and longer and longer, right? That people are really stressed out about it. They're very stressed out about, like, what am I going to do? Where is this money going to come from? Or they're the polar opposites and they're like, figure it out. And there's always some government funds that'll show up.

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. And I, you know, most people get more from the government. They think they're going to get um, when you look at, you know, Canadian pension plan, old age security. Like, it's not like it's not something that you strive to live only off of, but it is a nice, healthy base that's always going to be there when you're alive. Um, so, I mean, there is that I would say that, you know, a lot of the clients that I work with. They love what they do for work. And so like if I think of my job, I think of your job, you know, and I think of, you know what? If I had to work till I'm 70. Well, I love the work that I do, and I'm helping people and I'm interacting with different people every day, and I find it really rewarding. So in the back of my head, I go, yeah, I'm going to retire early. I'm going to do all these things because I might be able to. But at the same time, if I like what I'm doing and I enjoy what I'm doing, then why would I just keep doing it? Making money? And then, like you said, doing this semi-retirement and a lot of people that have chosen their career path and are in a job that they like, whether it's being a business owner or working for a company. They don't hate the idea of reducing hours and semi-retiring or, you know, working seasonally if they can and just kind of continuing on or giving back and training that next generation to do the job right and being kind of a mentor for them. So um, I think that the landscape in retirement for a lot of people is changing that way. Like for me, it's, uh, I will likely be able to retire early, but I probably won't. And I don't know if that'll mean that I will keep, you know, working in the capacity that I'm working as an advisor or if I will mentor new advisors or if I will, you know, create my own team that I will just kind of oversee and, um, work with. But same thing with you. Like, I know that you're passionate about what you do, and I know that you see great value in it and you get, you know, great reward out of the work that you do. And so. I can't really imagine you're retiring completely anyways, because you also have that bleeding heart where if somebody calls you and says, I really need some help, you'd be like, okay, absolutely, I'll be able to help this person. And that's not going to change. When you turn 65, you know you're going to be 66 and people are still going to ask and you're still going to say yes and you're still going to, you know, be doing that work for them. And, you know, that's really good for you in the way that you're not going to have to worry about that, you know, first year of retirement home because you're going to be doing the same thing. At least I think that Chad's completely different. Chad's going to, you know he'll be done

Dawn Taylor

Chad'll tap out the minute he can be done. And he will. And that's okay. That's totally him. And I love that about him. Yeah. But I do think it's a conversation that needs to be happening more though with people. Is this concept of realistic? I don't know I always say it's like this realistic denial right? Where it's like, no, we need to actually look at like, what would it take? What are the numbers? I remember having a client and I'd called you about it. And I'll say numbers because you can't. But I had a client who was like, she was panicking about this, and it was causing like, sleepless nights. It's like, how am I going to do this? And when we're grabbing onto control of anything in our lives, right. When we're feeling like life is out of control, we always grab onto something to panic about, right? It's a thing that's safe, and that's what we're going to put all of our stress on. And for her, it was retirement. That was her thing. That's what she was panicking about. And she's like, I have to have $8 million in a in an account before I can retire. And I don't know how I'm going to do it. And, you know, I'm gonna have to cut all my expenses and I'm going to have to get like, four more jobs and I've done this often too, when I'm like, okay, we're gonna call someone and I do this all the time to my friends in businesses. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna call a mortgage broker. I'm going to call someone an insurance. I'm going to call whoever I need you to be. Like, what does this look like? We need some realistic numbers. And I said, look, I'm not asking for a quote. I'm not asking for anything precise. But if I was to live till 65 and I want $7,000 a month to live off of the price for like 35 years or 30 years, what does that look like? And you were like, oh, about $800,000. Like a total, you're like, I've just done a plan for someone. 

Ron Sutherland

I was actually really close to what I just did. I was like, oh, great. I actually know this number.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. And it wasn't like for anyone that's saying, this is not this is not actual advice. This isn't specific numbers to you and your circumstances or what's going on. But you had told me like, these are the metrics around it. This is like you'd have to have the CPP in the old age and like, but this is about how much money you would take home a month. And the look of relief on my client's face when she heard that number. And then when we sat down and talked about it, she's like, that is feasible. Like, I'm on my way to that. And I said, okay, so now let's look at what is a day in the life of you at 65 going to look like? Like, what do you think that's going to look like if you want the golf membership to the club, what is that going to cost you? If you're still planning on having a mortgage, what is that going to cost you? Right. Like what is this going to look like for you? And we came up with some numbers. She went and talked to her guy. She's solid in that now. Right. But I think part of it is that we're so intimidated, we're so scared. And instead of facing it, instead of actually, like, calling someone and going, hey, can we talk about this? Can we start something? Can we have these conversations? We all just hide. And hope it'll like one day figure itself out.

Ron Suteherland

And the one thing that I see from people time and time again is when they calculate their retirement in their head, they don't take into account that their money makes money. So, for example, they'll say, oh, I've got $100,000 and I need $20,000 a year. That means I only have five years of retirement. And the math doesn't work that way. And obviously that's a really small example of it. But they don't realize that when you invest money, it makes money over time. And they don't take that into consideration. They don't take the government benefits in, and they just look at physically pulling out all the money that they need from their savings every year. And they don't take into account, you know, the government things, um, that they may have a spouse or partner that's also going to contribute to that. Um, the other thing that I always find, um, very interesting is when you ask the husband or the wife what they plan on doing in retirement. Sometimes it's very obvious that they haven't actually talked to each other about that, and then they're saving towards a goal that neither one of them have communicated to each other. And, you know, one person might want to stay at home and not work at all. And the other one may want to continue working or doing something. One person may want to travel and the other says, oh no, when I get to retirement, I just want to relax. I want to be done. I don't want to have any sort of things that I have to do. And the lack of communication between the two is, um, a big issue. And not that they're going to have struggles. Um, but it's just tough to make those plans when you haven't had a discussion about what it's actually going to look like. And you don't have to know for sure what it's going to look like. But, you know, having an idea of, like you said, are we going to travel a lot or are we going to have golf memberships? Are we going to, you know, spend a lot of time with the grandkids? Are we going to babysit the grandkids is another one that our generation is pretty good at pulling over on the parents. They're saying instead of paying for daycare, we're just going to drop the kids off and is that something that they want or something that they don't want? And, um, figuring that out is really good to kind of see what it's going to look like. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, and like, do you want to host in Arizona? Do you want, like, what is it you want? Um, so I had this like, funny phase where we hit our 40s and all of a sudden I was like, huh? Okay, we have to start thinking about this. And I don't even have a concept of this in my head. And for some people this might not make sense, but I remember calling you and going, Ron, this was like literally an end of a road. Like it was like the train went through the station and stopped at like 40. And then it just didn't continue. Like I've never even thought about it, dreamt about it. Anything, like this has never even been a concept in my brain. Like retirement wasn't even a thing. And it wasn't for my husband either. And I phoned you was like, what is your plan for retirement? Like, what are you doing? And I just started calling, like, all these random people in my life. And I was like, what is your dream? And the answers I got were so varied, right? Like some people were like, oh, we're going to get a place in Arizona, we're going to Winton, we're going to Snowbird. And other people were like, oh, we're planning on moving to Mexico full time, and we're going to live in a village. And my brain goes like, what? What about medical care? And what are you going to do about this? And right.

Ron Sutherland

But the practicality kicks in.

Dawn Taylor

Because I'm too practical in that way when it comes to health stuff. Some people were like, oh, we're going to get like a mountain cabin, whatever. We're going to get a lake house. So we're going to, you know, everyone has this idea in their head of what it is. What is your idea for retirement? Like, what does that look like for you?

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. Oh geez. That's a, you know, and it's tough for me because I'm constantly looking at it, dealing at it, moving it around. Right.

Dawn Taylor

Totally. You hear and see this all day every day. Yeah.

Ron Sutherland

Like I mean my goal is to financially be able to retire at 55, not counting the value of my business. And so, um. Because I want to go through the side of actually building a retirement without taking my business value into context. And, you know, if I did that, then I would obviously be able to retire earlier. But the idea for me is I want to do everything I'm telling all my clients to do right. I want to be saving. I want to be putting stuff away for the kids. And, um, but I also don't want to retire before my kids go to university because I want them to see, you know, me as someone that's working, and I want them to remember that I did work at some point in time and that, you know, it is an important thing to do. And, um, and maybe one of my kids wants to jump into the business. And for me, staying on longer, it would be really powerful to be able to share that experience with either my son or my daughter. I don't know which it is. Depending on day to day I have different opinions of which one it could be.

Dawn Taylor

Your daughter? Your daughter’ll be scrappy enough,

Ron Sutherland

I think so, yeah. Like, I just want to be able to go at 55. Um, but I probably won't. I could see, um, downsizing the clients that I work with and doing maybe a consulting side only, Morgan and I have talked about, you know who I know the States and, you know, playing golf in Arizona or something for 3 to 4 months. And what does it look like? But we have all these ideas. And for a while it was, we're going to go buy a condo in Canmore. And, you know, we're going to have that. And then. Then we'll sit and we'll kind of walk that back and say, okay, but wait a minute. We don't ski, we don't snowboard, we like the winters. We could go down there in the winters, but then what? And we golf a lot here in the summers. We could go down there for golf, but what are we actually going to do with it? Condo in Canmore. And so we've kind of now said, okay, well that doesn't really make sense. And so then with, you know, Arizona or Palm Springs, you think, okay, like this is great, but my licensing doesn't, as soon as I cross the border, the governing body just assumes that I've lost all my knowledge when I enter the States so I can’t actually work if I'm in the States. So that kind of changes that side of it. So, um, we don't have like a finite thing in mind of what it's going to be, but we've eliminated a lot of things along the way. And I think it's part of that discovery process to say, what actually do we want? Um, same thing about talking about moving, right? Would we move? Would we go to BC, would we go to Vernon or Kelowna and live there and say, well–

Dawn Taylor

Don't do it.

Ron Sutherland

And that's the thing, you just go, well, what do we enjoy? We enjoy the people that we like. We enjoy, you know, having our family close, we enjoy places that we know. We're not really those people that are going to pick up and move. So then, you know, it's okay. Well, what about a late lot? Again, we come back to what we golf all the time. So that's during the same piece. So it's um, the retirement thing for me is really just you're coming up with ideas and you're eliminating them based on who you and your spouse are and what you want for your kids. And the big thing about going to the States for me was, I don't know that I ever want to be in a different country for my kids for six months at a time. Like that in itself just doesn't appeal to me. You know, I hope that I will have a relationship with my children, that I will actually be present and be around and enjoy that part of it with them. So yeah, for us, it's just kind of having conversations regularly about, well, what about this? Well, I don't think so because of that or okay, great. And then we're slowly kind of narrowing it down to what it's going to look like and what we're going to do. And, you know, maybe it's taking a couple trips here and there and um, and then one of the things that I now talk to my clients about that I'm very conscious about is a lot of my clients are, you know, in retirement. And they've got a lot of money and by a lot of money, I mean, they've got a lot of money that they're never going to spend doing what they're doing the way that they're doing it. And so the discussion comes down to do you want to pass this all off when you die. Or do you want to see your money kind of working while you're alive. And a lot of like the older generation kind of like you talk, they were really good savers, really bad at spending money. Right. There was no debt. There was just accumulation. And they just, they built up this big nest egg and they sat on it. They did nothing. And so, you know, we're seeing this massive influx of money from generations coming down. And it's going to be the biggest one that we've ever seen. And. So I have a lot of conversations with clients, okay, what about if you started gifting money ahead of time and looking at, you know, pros and cons of that, or if I give you $100,000, it's now your $100,000. And if you do something that I don't like with it. I have no say in it. Right. It's gone.

Dawn Taylor

My grandparents did these little bits. And I remember talking to my grandma about it. And it was when typically when, like, one of their five daughters had a need where it was like they were struggling or they wanted to do something or they, you know, whatever, whatever was going on. But through our whole childhood, our parents would just get these random, and they were poor farmers. Like, it's not like they were really wealthy, but they would just gift like $3000 or $5000 to their kids. And my parents would always like, put it towards something special. It was like the beautiful oak dining room table and chairs that was bought with that. Right? Just random things. And then when our mom passed away, they started splitting that number between us three children. So we still got my mom's little bits and it was really cute. We'd get these like little checks in the mail and it was like $333.33. So you knew that, like, all the aunties got $1,000 and we'd get our like little chunks, but we bought very specific things with that. Like we bought things that were precious, things that were special things that meant something to us that even now you look at it and you're like, you think about my grandparents. And what that legacy was that they left. And I love that idea. I know Chad and I, he wants an acreage that is like his thing. He wants an acreage. He's the guy who's just gonna putter till he dies. Like he'll be the old man with, like, a 1960s cat pushing dirt around on the yard and building ponds.

Ron Sutherland

And I thought you were going animal there for a second. I was like, Not Chad.

Dawn Taylor

We talk, we try. I'm like, we just raised cows. And he's like, no, he just doesn't want the commitment to that. But that'll be him. I'll be the ones still working. And then I'm going to, like, randomly book, like, a three month cruise and take off and write like I can see that we're going to have very, very different retirements. And I think it's actually weirdly healthy.

Ron Sutherland

For sure. It is because you can coexist. And Chad's happy if you take off for three weeks and do whatever you want.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, he doesn't care.

Ron Sutherland

He's happy to have his time alone and you respect him having his time alone. And so like it's it's awesome to see that, you know, you've experienced the gifting side of things. And I have a lot of clients that have started to do that. And the other thing that they'll do is gifting experiences. And this is something that you do with your nieces and nephews, right? So it's saying, hey, instead of us hoarding all of our money, what we're going to do is we're going to book an annual trip for everybody, and we're going to go to Mexico, or we're going to Disneyland, or we're going to go and we're going to do something where we get the whole family together, and we spend some time together, and we give them an experience that maybe in their life right now they wouldn't be able to afford. And, you know, that's really cool. And, you know, I'm, oh, probably 25, 30 years away from having grandkids. But something that I want to do is I want to pay for their education, you know? And in my head, I think, like, you know, if I can build up a nest egg to be able to say to my kids, you know, any grandkids that we have, we're going to be the ones to contribute to their resp. We're going to be the ones to pay for the education. So you don't worry about that. You worry about everything else that you know is coming down, that, um, and just trying to, you know, push the quality of life forward. But gift things that are going to matter long term. Right. And so for you, whether it is $1,000 check or a $333 check, it's something that you know outside of what you purchased with it. You remember that coming from the grandparents and it being a special thing and seeing the difference that it did over time for you versus one lump sum. And so that's a lot of the stuff that we do is just, you know, chatting with people about when do you want to give? How do you want to give and how do we do it without paying the government as much money as possible? That's it. So let's give it to the kids, not the government.

Dawn Taylor

So for our generation, we talk. And I don't know if you've noticed this too. And you're quite a bit younger than I am.

Ron Sutherland

Yeah, I do have my youth.

Dawn Taylor

You do have your youth. Yeah. I like the old lady in the room. Um, but, like, you're much more comfortable talking about death, talking about retirement, talking about money, talking about, like, hey, these things are going to happen. And this is actually just our reality. So let's have the hard conversations and let's figure this out. And then there's our parents that are terrified to discuss this. And I've had this conversation so many times with friends, with family, with people that are like, how do I get my parents to be willing to talk about this, to be willing to discuss what you know, what we need in regards to like a will and a power of attorney and an enduring a power of attorney? But also like, hey, what do you want done with your estate? What do you want? Like how to have those conversations without it being like, okay, here's the sticky notes. Go around the house and choose what you want because we're dying any day now, right? Like it's such a, it's a topic that's been made to be so morbid. Right. And it's interesting because it's like retirement is like, woo hoo! When everyone's all excited, but deep down they're terrified because how are we going to do it? And how are we going to pay our bills? And what if something happens? And then on the flip side of it is like, but no one's willing to talk about the end. What do you recommend for kids? For us kids in our 40s that are like, hey, we need to talk to our parents about like, what is this going to look like? Like, we have a mutual friend right now and she's like, I have no idea what any of our four parents or their six parents all together now, like, no idea what any of the six parents have for retirement. No idea what they have in savings. No idea. And nobody will discuss it. So she's like, do I have to have the money put aside to pay for all of these seniors that haven't taken care of themselves, but nobody will talk?

Ron Sutherland

And that's that's a big, um, not a red flag, but it's one of those, like, you know, when we're doing a plan for someone. One of the things that we ask is, you know, are you going to inherit any money? And they go, oh, I don't know. And then put the question on, say, are you going to have to support your parents in care facilities? And then that is like a whoa, wait a minute. Like inheritance is one thing, but I didn't actually think that I could be in a position where I have to now pay a bill for my parents. And so that conversation, like you said, doesn't happen a lot. Now, um, I would say the one thing is lead by example, get your own done first. Um, my lawyer laughs at me because the day after I got married, I, you know, I said, hey, our will's updated like we're going to come sign them on Thursday if you can show us, you know, are you going on honeymoon now? We need to get the wills done. And so, like I, I've had mine done forever. And I kind of have to, like, people ask me if I've done it when I haven't, then I look terrible. Um, but I would say like, get those done because, you know, myself or another advisor like we can do the best financial plan for you, but if you don't have the legal side taken care of, it can all come crashing down. Um, the other thing is that an easy way of having the conversation, is, you know, chances are you, your brother or your sister are going to be the executor for your parents’ will. And most people that are executors have not done it multiple times. And so when you get put into that situation, it's a lot of work. You have to find a lot of documents and you need to know where to find things.

Dawn Taylor

Much work.

Ron Sutherland

And so luckily at the company that I work for that we cannot name for compliance. Um, we have this really excellent executor guide that basically is like filling in a road map on a treasure map. It's just saying, hey, where's all my accounts? What are my passwords? Where are these documents? Like what's in the freezer? What's in the safe, what's, you know, and just putting it together. So if something does happen, they have a roadmap of how to actually get all the information. And so like I obviously have that job for my parents and I know that they've completed this. This paper or this booklet.

Dawn Taylor

And which, by the way, we'll put, we'll put in the show notes. If you're willing to send it to me, we'll actually put it on the website so that people have access to it.

Ron Sutherland

And so, you know, then you can go in and you can fill it in and at least you'll know where everything is. And that will start the conversation of, okay, you know, what does it look like? There's also a really good resource that I can send you to put in the show notes, um, which talks about the power of attorney and the personal directive side of things, and many times when we're given that responsibility. Um, so for myself, for example, I know that I have a very different style of investing than my mother does. And if I'm looking after her finances, I'm going to do it in the lens of what would my mom have wanted for her investments? And she's very conservative. She does like risk. She's, you know, she wants dividends versus, you know, some big growth stocks. So I would invest that way. And that's pretty easy to understand. What about the medical side? What about my sister who is dealing with a medical thing? The medical thing is, you know. Does my woman want to have a DNR? At what point do we pull the plug? At what point do we do this? At what point is her quality of life to a point where she doesn't want to keep on going?

Dawn Taylor

Seven days, baby. Keep me alive for seven days. People can say goodbye and then yank it. All right.

Ron Sutherland

It's in black and white, right? But like, for a lot of people, like, putting that pressure on a child to make that decision for their parent without actually having a conversation with them, you're always going to wonder if you did it too late or too soon. You're never going to think I did it at the perfect time. And so there are some tools out there where it's a questionnaire we can go through and say, okay, what if, you know, what if I can speak? What if I can't see, what if I can't do these? Like what? What does it look like from a quality of life standpoint? Is it something that I want to have? And so, um, what we're trying to do is we're trying to prepare the executor, the personal directive and just make sure that, you know, you have a roadmap so that you know at what point you're supposed to jump in and do the job that you're signed up to do, because that can create a lot of animosity if you do it too soon. And for me, I've got two siblings and my sister is the one that has the job. But you know what? If my brother and I didn't agree, you know, when she pulled the cord. If that ends up being a thing. Yeah. And. Then that translates into okay, do those feelings break down into when the estate gets distributed? And is that going to be the eventual downfall of the family? 

Dawn Taylor

100% it is. And I'm going to just say this very, very bluntly. If you have children and you have not had these conversations, don't be an asshole. Have the conversations with your children. Because it's not fair to anybody and it's cruel. It is cruel to not have these conversations with your kids about this because like I remember when my mom passed away, so I was 28, she was 52 and my dad was the executor. He was in charge. He's grieving hard, like he's not in a headspace to deal with all the paperwork. And I ended up stepping in and doing all of the paperwork and everything. She had nothing organized. And so when I talk to my dad about it, I was like, okay, so what is there for life insurance? Where is the will? Where's the power of attorney? Like where is all of this stuff? He had no idea. He was like, um, probably in the filing cabinet. He thought that they had $250,000 of life insurance. I found almost 1.4 million. From random credit cards that they had life insurance on, random things. But the passwords, the chaos of that and trying to figure that out, we didn't ever close some things off because we couldn't. Yeah, there's probably still money out there she should have gotten and we didn't know and we didn't have access to anything because nothing had ever been put in place. Right. And I think it's not fair. It's not fair to your kids like we have, we've had a will since we were 19, almost 20. Like literally we got it when we got married and we were children. Yeah. And we've had the living well and the enduring power of attorney and all these things. And we update it every 3 to 5 years and redo it. And it's a whole thing. But like I have a file and it's called if something bad happens, you need this file. And it is in front of my filing cabinet on the bottom row. My executor is my childhood bestie, because she won't be emotionally invested in the same way as a family member would be. But also, I know that she has, and this sounds hilarious, but her and I've talked about it. I was like, you're not going to have a problem pulling the plug. Like. You'll fight people on it, but you'll also like to stand your ground on things and make sure things get done. And you have the resources to be able to handle that. You have the mentality to handle that, and you have the support system around you to be able to manage things like shutting down a company and dealing with all of those things. But we've had that forever and people know where it is, they know what it is. And then there is like, what do we want for a funeral? Do we want to be like–?

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. All the guesswork of it.

Dawn Taylor

All the guesswork is out of it, right down to like the party I like, literally. I updated every year on my birthday. Right? And I think I've said this before, like. And you and I've laughed about that. But literally it's in there. Like, who do they need to contact, who do they need to call? Like you're in there for paperwork because it's like, no, no, no, you need to call Ron for life insurance stuff. You need to call, like, yeah, like that's a thing. And we need to talk about this. We need to talk about it because it's inevitable we're all going to die. I don't know why people are so upset about death. Like, it's like it's going to happen. It's one of the only guarantees in life.

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. And it's it's tough. Like, I don't want to say that I'm desensitized to it, but I just I see it over and over and over again that I'm no longer shocked by it. And it's, you know, having the conversations, getting prepped for it. Um, even when it's down to, you know, how many professionals do you work with? And, you know, like, why do you have three people doing the same job, you know, find someone that you trust, pick one and make sure that they do a good job for you. But the person that's picking the pieces up after, like, think of that like you're calling one bank, one financial institution, one insurance company, one accountant. Like just, you know, whittled down the amount of accounts that someone has to monitor for you. And, you know, the other thing is like, be a part of the investment conversations with your spouse. But you know, there's so many that says, oh, no, like, you know, the wife takes care of the financials or the husband takes care of the financials. And, you know, when the one that takes care of the money disappears, then the last one is left confused, broken, and trying to learn money in a time where it's the last thing that they want to be thinking about.

Dawn Taylor

My dad had no idea.

Ron Sutherland

Right? He had no idea.

Dawn Taylor

None. The bookkeeping, like, I'll never forget pulling up. She died in a car accident at, like, around seven, 7:20 in the morning and on our way to work. She worked at a country school and. I showed up at the house. We lived nine hours away. We showed up at the house that night. We got there at about 8:00 and we walked in and like, my dad literally said as he's hugging me, he's like, I don't have any clean underwear, which Problem A, the fact that you don't know how to use a washer and dryer is the problem. So we're going to teach you now. But as I'm showing him how to do that, he's like, so my employee has to get paid tonight. And I was like, sorry. What? And like he was on disability, he hadn't been able to work. And I'm downstairs in like, heavy grief, like in the shock of the first 24 hours trying to figure out her bookkeeping system and trying to figure out how to pay this guy. And my dad knew nothing. Like, he didn't know any of it. And because my mom was so unorganized. Like, yeah, sure, the filing cabinet, but nothing was organized in it. I had to go through page after page like. I sat for days doing that, trying to find stuff, and I'm trying to figure out, like, payroll at the end of the day. And I just think that we don't think about those things. We don't think about what would life look like if we disappeared today and someone had to walk into this chaos? Do they know how to take care of this? Do they know how to manage this? Right? Like, have I set them up, set them up for success or failure?

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. And don't don't be a passenger in your financials. Like, know what's going on. And like I have my doomsday binder as well. And actually there's four people in my family, so I have four binders and they're all right beside each other and down to the point that if something happens to me, Morgan knows these are the advisors to talk to after. And there's a list and it goes from top to bottom like they've agreed to do it. And, you know, this is who you call and you're going to be okay. You make this one phone call and everything is going to be fine. And she knows those people and she knows what we're doing, and we go through it. And she hates going through it, but we do it and we chat about it because, you know, the side of you may not be here tomorrow. And on the insurance side of things, I look at, you know, if I'm not here tomorrow, I'm essentially trading off the rest of my income for the amount of insurance that I have today. And if I do, is my family going to be okay? And that's a powerful thing to think about. And I'm, you know, I review it all the time. And I think, you know, if they only get the insurance, not me, are they going to be able to live the life that I want them to live. Yeah, but I also tell my wife that all my insurance is pending just in case, because I know she'd probably have a hit out on me.

Dawn Taylor

Chad had got a motorbike years ago. Oh my God, it's probably like 12, 14 years ago. And he came home from work and I was making him sign these papers and he's like, what is this? And I was like, nothing. And he's like, okay. And he's like, no, seriously, what is this? And I'm like, oh, it's more life insurance on you. And he was like, what? And I was like, every time you do something stupid, I'm just going to keep increasing your life insurance so that I know I'm taken care of when you die. And he was like, wow, thank you. He's like, did you increase yours? And I was like, no, that's up to you to figure that out. And I mean, we joked about it, guys, I increased mine too. But like we have to have these conversations. We have to have conversations about retirement, about what that looks like, about what we want. If something bad were to happen to us, it's. Right. People think it's so crazy expensive to get a will. It's not as much money as you think.

Ron Sutherland

Not at all like it's, you know, and I look at it from, you know, what you're paying versus what you're getting out of it, like, the cost is too low. Maybe I don't want to say that, but, you know, like for the for the benefit that a will and a power of attorney and a personal director would bring to you and bring to your loved ones, like that's worth way more than what we pay for it.

Dawn Taylor

And just to know. Just to know. I apologize in advance, Ron. You are the person. Even though I have life insurance in a bunch of different places, I'm like, just call Ron. He'll know what to do.

Ron Sutherland

I know, I know, I'm that person for you, and that's okay, I like that.

Dawn Taylor

Just call Ron and I can deal with chat so that I'll be good, right?

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. Like there's your one phone call. He'll be able to figure out that piece of it.
Ron Sutherland
We'll be driving up the next acreage that you buy. And he'll be like, who's that guy?

Dawn Taylor

Right? And you know, one other thing that I put in there, um, and this is totally, like, as a joke, but it kind of serious I have in there, like, what I want for my funeral. Where I want to be buried, what I want for a funeral, what I want for the party the night before. Because, yeah, there is one. But I also have a list of people that is like, no, , these are my people that, if they want something, please let them go through our home and take something that means something to them. Right? That they might not be like in the will getting money, but it's like, no, no, no, you matter. Like, come on, take something if you want, Lego. If you want a piece of art, if you want some stupid chair, like, doesn't matter. Come and take something, whatever, whatever you want that would make you remember us and laugh.

Ron Sutherland

I like that. That's good.

Dawn Taylor

Because I'm like, why not? I also jokingly have a job letter for my assistant. To whom it may concern. And it's a reference letter for my assistant, but there's also a note in there to be like, hey, no fighting. Just enjoy life, live, laugh. Right. What is the legacy we want to leave? It's one of the things. And that list changes all the time with like, who's who's in our world and who really matters to us. But it's like.

Ron Sutherland

I would love to see who gets added and cut off that list.

Dawn Taylor

What about it? And cut off?

Ron Sutherland

Oh, a little bit. It's like, is there like a check mark over the years?

Dawn Taylor

It has changed a lot over the years. We also have funny stuff on our will, though our lawyer laughed really hard when we were doing it because, um, we've interesting things like no one gets anything till they're 45, right? Unless it's a health issue. So if somebody was to all of a sudden like, have a brain aneurysm or have cancer or something was to happen, they can have access to that money in advance to pay for treatments, right? Um, but nobody gets anything at all. But they're 45. And she was like, why? Like, why would you do that? And I was like, because I don't want to financially screw them up. And if they haven't figured out anything with their finances by 45 at that point, not my problem. They're never going to figure it out. And they can do what they want with the money. But we also have a clause that if anyone argues or fights over anything, it literally says in writing, you are considered dead to us and we'll get nothing like you're cut out of the will. Yeah. And I laugh about it. I'm like, so no one's allowed to fight for anything, or they're like, nope, you're out.

Ron Sutherland

That's good though. And I think that, like the very telling of the person that you are, and I think that anybody that reads that is going to be like, yeah, that makes sense. And this is the intention that it was written and know that you would be very serious about it too. Dead serious. Yeah. No need to fight. It's just stuff. It's just things. So is my money to be made. One piece of advice if you could give somebody one piece of advice right now who is either nervous or they're terrified, or they're just like, I don't even know where to start when it comes to retirement, when it comes to any of this stuff, what would you tell them?

Ron Sutherland

Um. I think the biggest thing for me is don't worry about what everybody else is doing. They're on a different path or on a different story. They're in a different situation. And there's no cookie cutter retirement plan. There's no cookie cutter, um, retirement dream. And that, you know, you're in a different situation and do what you can do. And if that means you're going to put away $25 or $50 a month and that's all you can put away, then put away that and be excited about it. Be excited that you know you're making a step towards saving for your future, but also taking care of what you're doing today. And people constantly compare with people in the office and nobody talks about their losses. They only talk about their gains. And, you know, it can be very tough in a situation where you know you're in a job, you're the new person, and people are doing all these wonderful things for retirement and you're feeling like you're not doing enough. Um, you know, and just go talk to somebody about it, like go talk to an advisor, sit down and have a conversation and have some goals set out for yourself. And like I said, it doesn't have to be, you know, a crazy amount of money. You're putting away every month. But put something and just know that something's better than nothing. And, you know, if you're moving forward even by a step or an inch, that's better than going backwards or staying stagnant and, yeah. So that's what I would say is just you're different than everybody else. And just remember that and don't compare yourself.

Dawn Taylor

You know, years ago we had a situation where one of the big threats of what was going on was bankruptcy. Yeah. And everybody around me that I was talking to was terrified. Everyone was just terrified. And it was doomsday and it was everything. And I found a bankruptcy trustee. And I was like, hey, can we talk? And then we're like, yeah, come in for an appointment. And we sat down and we went through every single number. And I was like, what would this look like? What do the numbers look like? What would we have to live off of? What would this actually play out to be? And it was amazing how it was so much less scary than everyone was making it out to be. And I was like, huh, okay, I can handle that. And what's interesting is that the lack of fear around the situation shifted the whole thing. Because I was no longer running scared from it. I wasn't scared of it anymore and I could face it. And that is what shifted everything in regards to what decisions we made, because we weren't running scared. And I think it's the same when it comes to retirement. It's the client that was losing it over. Like, I need $8 million to being like, oh, okay, that is way less of a number. So, now I actually feel like I can save for it.

Ron Sutherland

Yeah. And from the professional sitting on the other side of the desk. It's a common occurrence that we see, you know, disastrous situations, you know, terrible. And we don't judge. We're here to help. So that's the shame that people are feeling of, I don't want to go to see my accountant or I don't want to talk to my bookkeeper. And, you know, I don't want to see my investment or insurance person or, you know, to have those conversations about how we're behind or we're not doing enough or the, you know, the debt trust here. Um. We've seen it all and just know that, like from my side, I'm not looking at it from a judging standpoint. I'm looking at it from a how do we fix this? And how do we leave you or get you to a point where you're leaving here in a better situation than when you showed up and that's it. And, you know, I'm not having one of those meetings getting up out of my desk and going down the hall and screaming out all the details about how your situation is bad, like, those are private conversations. Those are conversations that stay in the room. And those are, you know, we have a responsibility to do what we can for those people. And, you know, reach out to us whether it is your accountant and, you know, I'm going to see my account right after this. We joked about that. You know, they're not going to, I'm not going to like what I'm going to see, but

Dawn Taylor

Oh gosh. No.

Ron Suterhland

It is what it is. Right. And it's, um, you know, I, I trust the advice, trust the situation. And, yeah, it'll be good.

Dawn Taylor

No judgment, just curiosity, baby.

Ron Sutherland

That's right.

Dawn Taylor

Thank you. Thank you for hanging out with me today and for having this conversation. I know you and I are two people that aren't afraid of this conversation, so we do discuss this for anyone listening who is like, ah, you know what? Go to the show notes, TheTaylorWay.ca. Okay, you can check out all of the resources that we listed for Ron. There's also his contact information if you do want to reach out. And if he's not the right fit, he will have somebody who is the right fit. But I do refer everyone to him in my life. Thank you, thank you.

Ron Sutherland

I appreciate it.

Dawn Taylor

You're welcome. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for hanging out with us today, Ron. And for those who are listening, guys, it's not that hard, I promise. It's one baby step. Just start somewhere and don't run scared of it because the problem's actually not going to go away. Surprise, surprise.

Ron Sutherland
It gets worse.

Dawn Taylor

Right? Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. And again, show notes. Located at TheTaylorWay.ca where you will find all of Ron's info. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and a review. See you guys in two weeks.