Dawn Taylor| 17/06/2024

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host Dawn Taylor, and today, we are talking to Barb Higgins. So, warning right now, y'all are going to put your judgey pants on for this one because we know you're going to anyways. We are diving into a baby at 57. Feel free to judge. Before we get started though, let me tell you a little bit about her, because I want you guys to learn to love this guest and not just judge her for her life decisions. Okay, we're just going to put it out there. We're going to put that out there. Barb is a CrossFit coach. Yeah, that's right. And a podcaster who had a baby at 57 after losing her daughter that was 13 years old, years ago. She continues to use exercise as a way to process grief, and it helps encourage your audience to do the same. From her traumatic experiences, she was inspired to write her book Motherland, which focuses on her daughter's death, and it helped create her podcast A Thousand Tiny Steps, where she tells her extraordinary life story. She is a beautiful mom. She's a wife, she's all of these things. She's an advocate in her community, and she's probably a very judged woman in everyday life. And yes, she's okay with me saying that. You should see her big grin and her thumbs up when I said that. And you know what? We're going to dive into this today. Welcome to the show, Barb.

Barb Higgins

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Dawn. I'm excited to be here. 

Dawn Taylor

Bring it on. You are so welcome. So what do you wish people were talking about?

Barb Higgins

I actually wish people were talking about all the things that people don't want to talk about, because until we really get honest with what we agree with, what we disagree with, and how we respond to those feelings and others, then growth and conversation and change can't happen. So, you know, being 60 now, I was raised that little girls were polite and followed the rules, you know, um, sugar and spice and everything nice. That was what little girls were. I always wanted to be a boy, which was snakes and snails and puppy dogs tails. And as a girl who is much more made of those things. Um, I just think that we need to talk about what we don't want to talk about. That's a very broad answer, but we'll get into it with my story and it will make sense.

Dawn Taylor 

100%. So before we get going, anyone who's listening, we're going to just put it out there right now. Barb and I discussed before we started today the fact that we're diving into heavy judgment. We're diving into that, and we're diving into the fact that we all make decisions every single day that are judged and what that looks like. So if anything that I say comes across as mean or comes across as judgmental or comes across as any of those things. It's not. And we did have a conversation about this prior. So, Barb, take it from there. And let's talk about what got you to having a baby at 57. Because that's nuts, girl. 

Barb Higgins

It is nuts. I was told that the first time I went to a doctor about it. Um, really, initially I thought it was a trauma response to losing my daughter Molly. It was just several months after she died. I started having this strange dream that I was supposed to have a baby, so, I'm sorry. I went into traumatic menopause at 52 right after she died, and then I started having this wacko dream. So I went to the doctor, sort of for just my annual exam. And I mentioned that I was having a dream of having a baby. And what did she think? And she let me have it. That's foolish. That's dangerous. Don't do it. What are you thinking? You need therapy. And I was a bit stunned. Um. and I walked out of there and actually got all my medical records and switched practices, but, um, you know, I mulled over what she said and and sat on it for like, another month or so. But the intensity of the dreams were they just kept coming. So we could get into a dream specialist and analyze why was I having these dreams? 100 reasons. Going through menopause, losing a daughter, the chaos of my life at that time, who knows? Um, but I just sort of thought, well, this will give me something to focus on. That's life producing as opposed to hiding under my covers all day thinking about Molly, who was never coming home. Um, and so I just follow through all the medical steps necessary. Let me be clear. I was 52 at the time, 53. And the number of steps I had to go through at that age to even get approved to try was huge. Mammogram, EKG, bloodwork, full physical, colonoscopy and, um, hysterectomy, which is where they take a little piece of the inside of your uterus and test it. I mean, they make sure everything in your body is okay before you even begin the process. And the final thing you have to do is to see a psychiatrist. So I thought, I'm going to fail that one, right? You know, crazy, crazy, grief stricken mom in her 50s, but I didn't. I passed all those things. Um, and then we were in a medical malpractice lawsuit for two years. And so that sort of swallowed up our time. We had no money. Um, we were devastated. I wasn't living the healthiest life. I just put it off, um, and then once we had settled the legal stuff and life sort of settled down a bit, the dreams came back. And so I thought, all right, I'm just going to follow the dreams. And that's what I did. So, you know, it wasn't I didn't I don't come into IVF through infertility. I had no trouble getting pregnant. Um, from my three babies prior to Jack, I lost my first baby at 25 weeks to a heart defect. And then two healthy girls. Then Molly died, and now Jack. So the fertility piece wasn't, um, the issue for me. I didn't sit in that waiting room with those other moms who were so anxious about the pregnancy, working in a very different way than I was. My feeling during this whole process was if it didn't work, then it wasn't supposed to work and the dream was telling me something else. And I know that's what's the word. It's not hokey, but very, very different than the average woman in her 50s trying to have a baby. I have Gracie and I had two other babies. It wasn't like, “Oh no, I must have a baby before I die.” It was, I have to do what this dream tells me. I'll follow all these steps. And I learned, let me tell you, I learned a shitload of unbelievable stuff in the process and talk about judgments every step of the way. Yeah, it was a good process.

Dawn Taylor

So right off the bat, Holy cow. I love that they do all of that stuff prior to, right. I don't know what the process is here in Canada. Barbara's in New England, she's in the States. But in Canada, I feel like they wouldn't do all of those things. And maybe there's research that I need to do, but we're so like, “No, it's fine, it's okay.” Right. Like, as long as this is the decision you want to make, do what you want to do. And so, I actually have mad respect for the fact that they did all of that and they were like, “No, no, no, we're going to make sure that you're in the right headspace to do this and that this is actually physically healthy for your body.” Let's backtrack one minute. You're married. What was your husband thinking? Right. Because you're having this dream and I can just picture my husband. Okay? So, like, I can picture my husband in my 50s. And so for those of you listening that don't know my personal story, my husband and I couldn't have kids. And it wasn't an option to do IVF or adopt or any of those things because of the brain aneurysm that happened when I was 17 that, like, I couldn't carry. Eggs weren't an option. Like, it wasn't a thing. And we made the decision to not do a surrogacy route or any of those things because it didn't feel right based on life expectancy for both of us to do that. But I can't imagine now, like I just turned 44. I can't imagine if I went to him and was like, “I think it's time. I think it's time that we have a kid.” Like at 44, he'd be like, “What the hell is wrong with you? What did you drink? What did you snort? Did you fall on your head? Or are you having another brain aneurysm?” Like he would not be like, we're like, we're ramping up, like. But he'd be like, “What are you thinking? We're going to be in our 60s before this kid even graduates.” Like, I can imagine where his head would go, especially as typically. And yes, I'm saying typically men are not quite as woo woo hokey spiritual in those ways as women are, that it would be like, “Go back to sleep and have a new dream.” 

Barb Higgins

So I didn't say anything to him for several months. I went through that first appointment that made me angry. And then and then I found I went to a different OB that I had had prior experience with. And he was fantastic. He did bloodwork. He talked to me about all the different options, let me know that my local hospital only went up to age 49. I'd have to find a clinic that specialized in women in their 50s. I found one just outside of Boston. You know, he was super supportive. So I did 3 or 4 appointments and a lot of research before I said anything. And when I went for my first appointment at the IVF clinic that I chose, um. the doctor, Vito Cardone, this Italian. You know, he's probably, I don't know how old. He's in his 80s now, but, you know, definitely old looking and didn't walk real fast. But this thick, wonderful accent and I had done a ton of the physical testing already, all sorts of the physical testing. And he remarked two things. One, you have a body that defies your age. I wouldn't think that you were a 53 if I just looked at your medical chart and looked at the results of all of your tests and, you know, BMI and heart rate and bloodwork and the skin, you know, internal organ, um, integrity, all that, all of it. Yeah. Yeah. He just said, no way. What? I think you're in your 50s. So who are you doing this with? Because, you know, it's important that you have support. I said, well, I guess I should let my husband know, so yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

That is funny. I love it went that far without even telling your husband.

Barb Higgins

We were, you know, we were living. We were all three people in the throes of traumatic, traumatic grief. We shared the house. But, you know, Gracie, my daughter and I, Gracie was 15 at the time. We slept on the living room floor on blankets and pillows for two years. We couldn't come up here, you know, upstairs, because everything reminded us of Molly. So Kenny slept up here in the master bedroom by himself. Like we were really just living parallel lives, you know, like we were all here, but really wrapped up in our own realities. So, Kenny and I didn't spend a lot of time sort of chit chatting. It was just trying to get through each day. Um, and so when I finally did say, “Hey, so I need to share this with you, it was probably the first.” It was probably like October, maybe even early November. Um, I said, “Hey, so I have an appointment on Friday with a fertility clinic.” And he just looks at me and I said, “Yeah, I've been having these dreams that I should have a baby. So, what do you think? Do you want to be a part of it? Because I'm perfectly happy to, you know, maybe I can adopt an embryo or find a sperm donor, or I don't know what to do, but if you want to be a part of it.” And he's like, “I'm in.”

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Barb Higgins

I mean, right away. He's a you know, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. And one of his major strengths is his ability to just be there with his kids. He has three children from a prior marriage. And then if Molly and Gracie, you know, then there were two children, you know, Molly and Gracie, and then Molly died and now Jack. So, you know, he's got six kids. Yeah. Well, seven, two and seven. So five here. Right. So, he loves being a dad and he's a good like, right now. He's like, on the floor in the living room surrounded by toys, you know, just doing whatever Jack tells him to do, you know, uh, having a blast. So, that didn't surprise me so much. Um, and he was also very willing to sort of let me let me drive the train, so to speak. Um, he just wanted to be supportive and helpful in whatever way he could. And so when we got all of the approval, he had to have a bunch of testing to, let me be clear. He had to have psychological testing. He had to have, you know, he was on kidney dialysis at the time. He was in late stage renal failure. Um, but that, you know, that wasn't an issue that wasn't a factor in, in, um, in us being approved or, um, sperm extraction for Kenny. Kenny had a vasectomy. So, um, you know, he actually had to have a little painful procedure too. How lucky for him, right? So they had to take, you know, extract the sperm. Um. And so he was approved for all of that, even being on kidney dialysis. So it's interesting that the implications put on you as an aneurysm survivor. Um, I'm not sure that that exists in the US. I'm not sure that would probably predicate you having a baby or adopting or anything like that. It's interesting. It's just interesting what different governments and countries focus on and how they how they control their women

Dawn Taylor

Really quick. How are his kidneys doing?

Barb Higgins

Oh, that's an amazing story actually telling it today. So you, your listeners can't see this, but I have a tattoo on my arm that says Hashtag Heart Molly B, which is what my shirt says, which is our foundation for Molly. And then the B stands for B the miracle. So Molly died May 7th and that was one of her friend. Rachel's birthday's May 7th. Um, and Rachel danced in her memorial service. Rachel was older than Molly, but, um, they all danced together. And Rachel died three years and a day after Molly and she died of anaphylaxis from peanut paste eating peanut paste and an egg roll. Went to a restaurant, ordered egg rolls. Was on life support. Same hospital. So our family totally helped that family because, um, everyone had been so good to us when Molly died. Same dance school, same theater, you know, all the same sort of connections. Um, we couldn't donate Molly's organs because they didn't know if her brain tumor was cancerous. When they realized Rachel was never going to wake up and they would have to remove her from life support, which we had gone through. Rachel's mom asked, “What did we donate? Molly's organs?” And I said we couldn't. And it was too bad because Kenny could have gotten her kidney. Yeah. And she looked at me and she goes, “Huh? Kenny needs a kidney. What's his blood type?” And I said, “Oh, positive.” And she went, “Mm, that's Rachel's.” So that was the end of the conversation. I wasn't there to get a kidney. So we're at the cemetery on May 7th, 2019. We get a phone call from Jen, Rachel's mom, to ask for Kenny's kidney transplant coordinator because they want to give him one of Rachel's kidneys. So Kenny has Rachel's kidney so that, the kidney that lives in in Molly's tummy. That is in Molly's funeral. Today is April 19th that we're recording. Um, and today is the day. Three years, five years ago today that Rachel ate the egg roll. So I talked to her mom a lot. You know, these kinds of, you know, uh. date markers and and reminders of what happened are hard to take year to year in the days lining up this year. So, Rachel's mom's having a really hard time, but kidney transplant. So that plays into our making Jack's story as well, because our first try, well, in the process of doing all the testing. So, we did all the testing, said, no, we can't do the we can't do the IVF now, we don't have the money. We haven't settled the lawsuit. We have too much going on. Dreams went away. Two years later, the dreams come back. We just, all right, let's do this. So I didn't have to do any of the significant tests over. I had to get bloodwork and another physical. Yeah. Um, and in the process of going off the 9000 antipsychotics, I was on, um, to not, you know, jump off a bridge because Molly had died and amazes me that I could be on all those medicines and function. But, um, it took me about three months to really go off all the medicine. So I have a mouth condition called trigeminal neuralgia, and I was on anti-seizure medicine for it. It's a nerve condition. And, uh, I had to go off. Of course, the medicine can't be, you know, now is 55, can't be 55. And having a baby and taking, you know, topiramate and all that anti-seizure meds. Yeah. And the face pain was I couldn't have carried a baby. So, I found a surgeon in New York City that can operate on your brain and fix the mouth condition. And so I said, “Look, I'm trying to have a baby. Um, you know, my neighbor went to you, and you fixed her mouth. Would you consider fixing mine?” And he said, “Sure, go get this MRI.” So I went and got this MRI and found out that I had three brain tumors in my head. So my daughter had died of an undiagnosed brain tumor. All the while I had brain tumors and didn't know about it. So, um, so I had to get all those taken out, which I did. So that neurologist, you know, he took tumors out in January and then cut my head open again to fix my mouth in April and signed me off. It was the day that Rachel was taken off life support. Kenny went to Boston to get her kidney, and I went to New York and got approval to have a baby after two craniotomies. So that was a big day. 

Dawn Taylor

You've had a very boring life.

Barb Higgins

Yeah, no, not much. Nothing happens to me 

Dawn Taylor

Because I always laugh because people are like, so your life's been insane. And I'm like, kind of. I guess maybe it's just been my normal. Yeah, so the other person I'm curious about in all this is your daughter.

Barb Higgins

So Gracie was kept out of this the entire time. Um, so my senior year, she didn't know it at all that I was going through any of this. Um, and then when I found the brain tumors and and, um, you know, she's a senior. Her dad's on kidney dialysis. Now, her mother's getting brain 

cancer like this. Poor girl. “What the hell? Am I just going to be the only one left? Is everyone going to die on me?” That's what she thought. So when I got back from when the brain surgery and all this was done, I then told Gracie, “I want you to know that what I was trying to do was to have a baby.” And the only reason I found the brain tumors was I couldn't go through with an IVF pregnancy with that and take the medicine for my face. Um, so that's why I did the only reason I knew was I was trying to have a baby, so she got very upset with me. She was glad I found out about the tumors, but she was like, “What the hell are you thinking?” Just livid. “Am I not enough?” And of course, siblings that lose siblings are like the forgotten grievers. Sometimes it's their, you can't have big online support groups for kids because it's not safe. They have to be moderated by adults. Adults aren't kids, you know, like it's a really difficult thing. And we had a really good therapist for Gracie and really, really tried to take care of her, but. Molly was her everything. That was her day to day life. And so she was just in this sort of fog her entire high school time. So, I didn't want to upset her anymore. So when I got the okay to continue, I didn't tell her. Um. And people give me crap about that. My thoughts at the time were primarily that she had enough stress in her life. If it didn't work, she never had to know I tried again, you know, if it didn't work, I'd never have to tell her. Um, so she was a non-piece to this. Um, and, you know, I wasn't trying to replace Molly. It's like people with ten kids. You don't have your second kid to replace the first. You know, your third kid to replace the two. You know, you add to your family. You know, love multiplies. You don't have to divide your heart up. You just keep growing new spots in your heart for the next kid. And so, but she immediately felt like she somehow wasn't enough. And of course, it's not her job to be enough. It's her job to be Gracie. She's not supposed to be Gracie and Molly because Molly died. She just needs to be Gracie. But you know, all of her own insecurities and such. Um, so when round two came around. So here's the Rachel peace. The first try was in the fall of 2019, and it was Kenny's sperm extraction before the kidney transplant. Um, and then when we went back it didn't work and I thought, okay, that's it. It didn't work. I wasn't supposed to have a baby. But the nurse said, well, keep taking the ashtrays. Don't stop taking that. Just stay on that right now. And you have an appointment like in ten days. It was like a follow up. So I go down and I go in and I'm like, can we try again? And he sort of he comes, you know, waddling in like he does. And he sits down and he looks at me and I said, can we try again? And he goes, you'll have to twist my arm. And so I said, give me your arm. So he put his arm up and I twisted it, and he opened his drawer and he says, I have a list. And he goes, the first thing I'm going to do is you. And he points to Kenny, and he said, it wasn't you. You're not the reason this didn't work. I'm amazed it didn't. It was him. So he had another round of sperm extraction post kidney transplant. So, my doctor really feels like that was a big part of it. So he gave it all two times. That 30-second sperm extraction.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, it's like childbirth. Come on.

Barb Higgins

Yeah, yeah, I know he was funny. Oh, I have to go through that again. This is where I get judgey. I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah. You do? 

Dawn Taylor

Yes. Just one more time. One more time. 

Barb Higgins

Yeah. So, um, but it was the finding the brain tumors. And then that led to being home and online when we found out Rachel was sick and because we were both because I was recuperating, Kenny was so sick. We just had a lot of time to help this family. And then we get Kenny, Rachel's kidney. And then. So that was in May and my IVF transfer was at the end of July. I was 56 when the transfer occurred. I turned 57 and found out I was pregnant on August 5th, and that was the day that I conceived Gracie in 2000. Why do I remember these things? I don't know, but I love dates. 

Dawn Taylor

I’m a dates person, I do get it.

Barb Higgins 

Yeah, yeah. And then we couldn't tell anyone. I called my local OB and he's like, “All right, keep your mouth shut. Say nothing. Live your life. Put it away. Forget about it. Stay healthy. Just do what you do.” Because, you know, the first 13 weeks. So, I didn't say anything to Gracie, still. Because again, if I lost the baby. It was something I would much rather have shared with her down the road at a time where it wasn't such a crucial piece of her happiness. As such, we had Covid two so she couldn't even go away to college. You know, she was right here sort of being a part of it all. And so when I got to the 13 week mark, I switch over from the IVF clinic to my local OB and he had to sign off, you know, like I had two embryos implanted. I really wanted twins. Not because I wanted to carry twins, but because I'm a 60 year old mother and I wanted Jack to have a sibling his age, you know, like, we have a million friends, and he's with kids all the time, so we're making that work. But my thoughts were Molly and Gracie just played together all the time, and I wanted that for him. That's not what happened. So, I think it wasn't supposed to, but, um, when I got to the 13 week mark, you know, that's when you stop. That's another thing about IVF. I thought you would, like, wean off the hormones. Nope. You get to 13 weeks and you pull off the patch and you throw away the syringes and you stop. You just stop and your body takes over or it doesn't. So, I got really nervous, and I was on the phone with my OB. It was that first phone conversation. I thought I was home alone and Gracie was home. So she overheard, so she's like, why aren't you telling me? And I'm like, oh sweetie. So he told me, don't say anything until you're 22 weeks pregnant. And I'm like, what? So talk about judgment. This is what he said to me. You are a person in our community that is out there. You've been judged for many things. I had a really public job loss. I'm one of those people that everybody knows and they love me or they hate me. There's no middle ground. And, um, he said, you don't need the judgment if anything goes wrong with this pregnancy and it's related to your age, all you're going to be is judged by everybody. So, keep it secret. Tell the people that need to know and insist that nobody say anything. So the only people that knew were my CrossFit coaches because, you know, I'm working out and at the gym, I was working out at the most. Two of the coaches were paramedics. And so I thought I went to classes when they were coaching. Like, I just made sure. But I worked out every day. I mean, I lifted weights, I did all the CrossFit workouts, you know, I didn't, as I got bigger, of course I slowed down and I made modifications. But, uh, yeah, I would say of all four of my pregnancies, this was by far the best one and the one I was the most fit. I gained the least amount of weight. Um, yeah, that was cool. But I didn't tell anyone. 

Dawn Taylor

How did Gracie deal with it?

Barb Higgins

She didn't talk to me for a couple of weeks, and I just gave her the freedom to do that. I said, we have to put the pause button, push the pause button, and sit down and eat dinner. We live in the same home. Um, I'll go unpause. And if you need to storm off and slam your door, go right ahead. I can't, I can't tell you how to feel. Find someone to talk about this with. Choose someone to tell you. I'm not going to tell you how to cope with this. And so, she had a couple of confidants and, um. Yeah, she was just livid. And I think it also, you know, she was 19 at the time. I think it just grossed her out, you know, like, “Oh, like, that's just disgusting.” 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say I was going to say there would be so many emotions around that. Right? Like rejection, abandonment. I'm not enough. I'm not right. Love might get taken away from me, but also like fear of losing another sibling. Like, what if this one also dies? What if there's so many different layers? But also that. Right? Like, ew. Yeah. Like my parents having a baby at this point. 

Barb Higgins

And so during the remainder of the pregnancy, she was, I didn't, you know, I didn't do belly pictures and did all that stuff. I didn't incorporate her into that. Um, I didn't post anything on social media at all my entire pregnancy. I took a dive. You know, I have tons of pictures and videos, but I didn't post any of them until after Jack had arrived. Um, and then once I got through all of the testing and found out he was a boy and went through everything, one of the final things that I had to have was a fetal echocardiogram, and I lost a baby at 25 weeks. Well, I chose to deliver him. He was alive in my belly, but he was a frog baby. His heart was only two and one atrium, one ventricle backwards, upside down the arteries. It was just a mess. And it worked in the in the womb because he's drinking amniotic fluid. Once he came out, he would have just slowly suffocated and there was nothing they could do to fix it. Even in utero. And so I chose to deliver him. And he died before he, you know, I went into labor like eight at night with him. And he died at about 9:15. Just the contractions, you know, he couldn't even survive the contractions. So that eased my mind a bit. I mean, you know, you have such judgment about pregnancy termination. But I feel like I made the right choice for him. And the story gets better. So we delivered baby Gordy. And we donated his body to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, and we got lots of feedback that they had that the autopsy was consistent with the fact that he wouldn't have survived once he was born. And they've been able to learn a lot, and that they had replicated his heart and were able to make repairs on infant hearts. Now, that would keep those babies alive long enough to get a heart transplant, like. So I felt like, okay, little baby Gordy was saving lives. And so I had to go for jet with Jack to have this big fetal echocardiogram at the same hospital, you know, 20 minutes down the road from my house. You know, 22 years later, I'm doing this right. So I'm in there and I'm having that fetal echo and the cardiologist comes in. And of course, I'm chatting away about Molly. And did you know because that the hospital's affiliated with the hospital where Molly died? And then I talked about baby Jack and this funny doctor with an accent. That was my doctor back then. And so the cardiologist comes in, she's a woman, and she starts asking me really pointed questions about baby Gordy. And I'm like, is there something you need to know? And she said, I think I performed the autopsy on that baby. And so she;s the one that extricated his little heart and worked with all those. So I meet her 22 years later, like on a Tuesday. And she came in because she covered for someone and she had gotten out of pediatrics because it was too stressful for her. Yeah. If she. And she wouldn't have. When she saw that it was a fetal echo and then saw my age, she's like, okay, I'll do it because it can't be a fetal echo because she's 57. And of course, it was a fetal echo, itwas me. So Kenny and I, I don't think we could speak for the remainder of the day, because what are the odds that this cardiologist from Philadelphia now lives in New Hampshire? And looked at my baby 22 years after doing the autopsy on my other baby? 

Dawn Taylor

It's like so many cool little pieces of, like, closure for you. 

Barb Higgins

Big time. So, um, so once all of that was done, I started to tell people I still didn't post on social media, uh, because I didn't want it to get crazy. I thought there'll be enough media coverage once he's arrived, and I'll just save it for then. And I'm glad. I'm glad I did. It wasn't easy for me. I'm a I'm a Leo. Look at me, look at me. You know, I can be very ego driven. I have to be honest sometimes. And, um, it was hard for me not to say anything, but it was also somewhat comforting and soothing, and it saved me from the on the onslaught of of judgy people that, you know, and I bit a judgment in my family. Not too much. 1 or 2, like one of Kenny's children was furious, didn't talk to me for months and months and months. You know, and that, you know, that's their prerogative. They can do what they want. I can't control how they feel. They just took it personally somehow, like I was doing it to, I don't know, despite them. Like I think I'll have a baby to piss someone off. No, that's not, like that's why you get these reactions. We're better now, you know, we're cordial to one another now. And Jack is impossible not to love. So, you know, that's all calmed down a bit. But, um, for the most part, though, people were really, really happy for me. The people that were judgy were people that at that time, people that judge me like in my life, people that know me, the people that were judgy, were people that would judge me no matter what I did, you know? Yeah, I could find a cure for cancer. And they judge me, you know, it's there are people that are just like that. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, there really are. There really are. So, you have little Jack. Is Gracie, is Gracie good with little Jack now? 

Barb Higgins

Oh my God. So that took about a millisecond. I came home from the hospital. Um, it was still Covid, so she couldn't have come to the hospital anyway. Yeah, I could just have. Kenny. Um, and so I have teeny tiny little Jack, and I'm sitting. I'm just propped up in bed, you know, and sitting with him, like, on my chest and everything. And she peeks around the corner, you know, the stairs come up into the bedroom and I so I just held him up and she just went and she just grabbed him and unwrapped him, checked them all out, held them, and that was it. I mean, she's number one even even the only reason I'm number one is if he wants to nurse, then he wants mum. But, uh, but otherwise he calls her sissy. Yeah. And this is it. That's sissy. She's number one.

Dawn Taylor

I love that. On how healing for both of you. So let's dive into this judgment piece for a bit. So you've alluded to like a public job firing and like a court case and all of these different things that have gone on. With or without all of those things, with or without having a baby at 57. We are actually just judged as humans all day, every day. 

Barb Higgins

Yes, we are 

Dawn Taylor

And it's interesting. I mentioned to someone I was recording this podcast. I was telling you prior and asking permission to say this and. And you gave it. But I mentioned and their immediate response was, well, that's child abuse. And they were mortified at it. And I laughed and I said, okay, I don't know if I'd go that far. Like, I don't think it's quite that severe. And they're like, well, they're going to be that kid's going to end up an orphan, and they're going to have, you know, like they're going to be dead before you even graduated high school. And like, there were all these, like really, really big emotions and feelings around it. And I have to be honest, when you applied for the podcast, I had an immediate reaction like that. Like, “What the fuck? What is wrong with this woman?” Yeah, but also knowing that I was like, “This is interesting and I'm really curious.” I want the story behind it and what's going on and like we were talking about earlier. We get judged all the time for not having kids, right? I remember my own, like I had a sibling say to me at one point, like, who's going to take care of you when you're old? And I laughed and I said, your kids, because they're going to like me more. Was my response good for you? Right. And they were like, oh, well. And I'm like, who's going to take care of you when you're old? And he kind of looked at me. So yes, it was my brother. He kind of looked at me and I said, “There's no magic rule book that's like, oh, you need to have kids so that they take care of you when you're old, or how that's going to go down or how that's going to look.” You could have a parent who has a kid at 35 and they're unhealthy and sickly, and they die at a young age. You can have a parent who's 60, and they are beautifully healthy and active and actually know it because they've done all the testing and they've done all those things right. We attach judgments to anything and everything out of a place of fear, out of a place of “I think I'm better than you” right out of a “I wouldn't make a decision that way.” Right?

Barb Higgins 

Yeah. I'm convinced that judgments come. When somebody is super judgy and very vocal about the judgment and there's anger behind the judgment, I always equate anger with fear. Um, you know, your fear of love, the two opposites, right? How you operate. And I used to feel very personally attacked by it. And I realize now that anyone that is vocally judgmental about something is really that's attached to something inside of them. So probably the biggest judgment I get is, um, how selfish it is of me to have a baby at my age, because how unfair that is for the baby. And so I listen like, okay, well, it depends on what you call fair, because most parents in their 30s have their children and childcare 50 hours a week because they're working full time, and then they get home and they're rushing around, and then they're in bed, and then weekends are full of things they think they have to do. So, to me, that's a crappy life for a kid, not the childcare places aren't wonderful, but you have a kid and, you know, 50 hours a week, you're paying someone else to raise them for you. So there's my judgment, right? Kenny's retired. Jack slept until 8:15 today. Yesterday he slept till nine. The other day he was up at 630. He wakes up. When he wakes up, he goes to sleep. When he goes to sleep. So all the schedule, your kids, people would say, you know, well, aren't you so lucky you can live that life? Yeah. When you're retired and financially secure, you can actually put your child first. So am I abusing Jack by having him at 57? Well, you know, when he graduates high school, I'm going to be that wrinkly person that everyone thinks is his grandmother. Okay, that's true, but his life right now is geared around what's best for him. He goes to an amazing preschool two days a week. They play outside all day. He goes swimming, he goes to little ninja classes, he has playdates. And who does all this? Kenny, who never got to raise his other kids because he was working 70 hours a week. He was never home for these things. His chunks of time with his kids, all of his kids were on the weekends when he had time. If you had time. Does it mean he doesn't love those kids? No. Does it mean those kids don't love him? No. But the number of times he's looked at me and said. I missed this with all my other kids. I never saw this, you know, and that to me, it's like, what a gift, what a gift Jack is in that regard. And how lucky for Jack. Like, my mother babysat Gracie and Molly, so my mother got to see all of these milestones, which eased my mind for the things I missed. I was teaching and coaching full time in public education. Um, and so, you know, my mother was with my girls way more than I was the first 3 or 4 years of their lives. I feel lucky because it was her. And she came to my home so they could play with their own toys and but I didn't see a lot of those things. I heard about things. So, you know, yeah, there's pros and cons to all of it. So when I, when I think of other older women having babies, I think, good for you. You've, you know, I've put behind me all my selfish years. You know, I'm done with the partying. I don't need to sleep around anymore. I don't care what I look like naked. Um, I'm not beholden to a job that I. If I'm not there, they might fire me. Oh, no, I'm not fighting for a promotion. I don't have to worry about a lot of those things. I pee when I sneeze. Doesn't matter how much I try not to. That's my biggest concern right now. So how lucky for Jack that he has a mother that has time to be with him and put him first. Instead of panicking about all the things out of my home that seem important to me. Judge that, right?

Dawn Taylor

That's awesome. 

Barb Higgins

but I do get it. And I think sometimes we, um, you know, there's an age where you're still a mother and now you're mothering your parents. You know, like, I'm getting to that age where my parents are beginning to need more support. They're beginning to need more assistance and help. So it's like you start mothering your parents. And now I have this little three year old that I'm mothering, and I can see where this could become exhausting. If Jack wasn't here, Gracie would be my child. And while I do mother her, not in the way that I mother Jack. Um, I can see where people I could see where. Why would people's minds go there, like, how are you going to, you know. And I could see why they think Jack is going to have to take care of me at a young age. But my parents are 82 and I'm 60, so that's 22 years from now. So in 22 years, Jack will be 25. So I don't think it'll really hinder him too much if he has to visit me in a nursing home. If that's where I am, which I don't think I will be. I have incredibly good genetics in my family. Um, my biological dad died at 98. Um, my grandparents on my mother's side of the family lived late into their 90s. I have an aunt that's 102. She's still alive. Um, so I don't think I'm going to die unless I get hit by a bus. But I could, right?

Dawn Taylor

There's no guarantee on any of that. There's no guarantees on those things. So that judgement. You have a podcast called Million Little Steps. And that's been one of your big things. And something that I say to people all the time is you can do anything and everything you set your mind to if you do three little tiny things. One is to have a tiny piece of determination. Second is no shame and third is one tiny step. 

Barb Higgins

Yes. 

Dawn Taylor

One tiny action. And if you do those three things over and over and over and over and over, you could do anything and everything that you set your mind to. And the problem typically isn't the termination or what the steps are. It's the shame piece in the middle. And people can't overcome the shame. And I did an exercise years ago. I had a bet going with a kid. His mom wanted me to coach him. He was oh my goodness, early 20s. His mom wanted me to coach him. And he refused. He adamantly refused. And we got on a phone call one day and I said, look, I said, “Will you go for a walk with me?” And I happen to be in the city he lived in. And he's like, “Yeah, sure, fine, whatever.” And we went for a walk. And I said, if I can turn $0.52 into something worth at least $800, pretty shiny and sparkly by the end of today, you're going to coach with me for at least six sessions. Because I was trying to explain this concept to him and he's like, “What do you mean?” And so as a joke, it was my birthday weekend. And as a joke, I had asked my husband what he was going to buy me for my birthday, and he dug in his pocket, grabbed some change, tossed it upon my desk, and he's like, “Buy yourself a little something pretty.” And it was $0.52. And I was like, “Wow, thank you so much for your generosity.” And it was a total joke, right? And we were laughing about it, but I still had this money in my pocket I had thrown into my pocket that morning. I'd hopped on a plane, I'd flown there, and now I'm talking to this kid in this park. And I pulled this money out, and I looked at it and I said, “So what do you think we could do with it?” Because you're talking about, like bettering your life. Shifting your life. Advancing yourself in some way. Right? Demanding more of yourself than where you're at. And he's like, yeah, right. “What are you gonna do with $0.52?” And I was like, I don't even think you can buy a penny candy anymore. Like I just. Right, right. Could have filled half a little brown paper baggie with penny candies, right? But I said, you know what? Let's see, let's see what we can create. And this person was walking by and they're pushing a stroller in this park, and I said, excuse me. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, my husband said. And I told them this story and not in a mean way, but my husband at all. But I was like, any chance you have something bigger or better that I could trade you for? For the $0.52. And she started laughing and she's like, ah, I don't know. She's like, I have a dollar. So in Canada, they're called loonies. They're a little gold coin. Yeah. And we have loonies and townies and bills and I said, that's amazing. And she's like, here you go. And I looked at him and I was like, we just doubled our money. We have a dollar. And I'm all excited. And he's like, it's a dollar. Like, you can't do anything with a dollar. And I said, but I just doubled my money with one tiny action and no shame. And as we walked around this park, we kept doing this and doing this and doing this and doing this and doing this. And people were like, what the hell's wrong with you, lady? And people are getting mad and people are judging what I'm doing and people are badmouthing me but people were also being nice about it. And people were like, you know what? Here, just take a dollar. Okay, here, take $2. Oh, I've got a few extra pennies you can add to that. Yeah. And as we're walking back this big trail, we were walking as we walked back to the parking lot where his mom was waiting. I said, look, we're going to put this on social media. I don't have this massive following. So it's not like I was some influencer doing this, but I said, we're going to put this on social media and you can follow me all day while I do this. It's 3:00. Let's see what we can get by the end of the day. I said if I hit $800, I was like, you're doing coaching with me? And he's like, “Yeah, good luck, deal.” My friend picked me up. Her two boys are with us, and we decide that we're going to take all this challenge, man. We went to businesses and asked if they had anything that they'd give us. We literally went to one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in town and like, knocked on people's doors asking them for things. At one point we had like $12 in change. We went to a dollar store and made it a candy Easter basket, so we'd have something more impressive to trade with. We kept going and going and going and going and going. We ended up with artwork. We ended up with Michael Kors sunglasses. We ended up like people, gave us the funniest things and the final item, and it actually sits in my desk as a reminder. And let me grab it so I can show it to you, was a pearl diamond watch. 

Barb Higgins

Holy crap. 

Dawn Taylor

It's a gorgeous watch for anyone who can see this.

Barb Higgins

It's amazing. 

Dawn Taylor

Stunning watch. The person's like, it doesn't work. But here, I'll trade you for the artwork you just got. And I said, cool. We took it to a jewelry store. It needed a $14 battery put in. It works perfect. I've never worn it. It just lives in my drawer as a reminder. But guess what the value of it was.

Barb Higgins

Well, it's probably close. Well, probably a lot. 

Dawn Taylor

It was on sale that day for $815. It was worth $800. 

Barb Higgins

So you got you started with $0.52, 

Dawn Taylor

And it was shiny, sparkly and pretty, which was what my requirement was. People were messaging me and I'm talking. This went down over four hours, right? 

Barb Higgins

So that story is a perfect illustration of why I call my podcast A Thousand Tiny Steps. And for me it came from a health lesson that I did. I taught high school health. And we would talk about relationships and choices and going through life. And my example was, you have two people, once a gold medalist in the Olympics, and one ran over his neighbor's kid with his car because he was drunk. And let's go back to when they were ten and they were best friends living next to each other. So when did these when did the first step of these realities happen? It wasn't the day they woke up. Boy number one didn't wake up and say, “Oh, today I'm going to go to Montreal, Canada.” And because it was a long time ago, and when the Olympics in Montreal. Right. “I think I'll do that today. I'm going to go win a gold medal and fly to the Olympics and win.” No, that's not what happened. And this boy didn't wake up and say, “Hey, you know, I think I'll get shitfaced and kill my neighbor's kid.” But these two realities happen. These things happen all the time. Watch the Olympics, people win gold medals. Watch the news. Kids get run over by drunk drivers. So when did it start? Let's back up. And so I would have them choose an event in their life and try to back up to see where the first step is. And sometimes it's a first conscious step on our part. And sometimes somebody does something that predicates our first step, that we wish we could go back and respond to differently. Does that make sense? So your story is is such a good example of what I would try to teach my students. Like look, so if you have a goal then take your first. Your first step was deciding to do something with $0.52. That's the size of the first step. The first step for anything you do is worth about $0.50, if that. And so then you've made that step. Okay, now I need a buck. What do I do? And that's your next step. All right. Now I need to double this. And that's your next step. It's all these little steps. So when I look at like, Jack's life, when I look at Molly's death, you know, I'm part of my reason for starting the podcast was to come to terms with how I was to blame for Molly's death? Because I'm her mother, you know, it's not lost on me that I'm supposed to keep her alive. And my life was very chaotic the year before she died. I was away a lot. Kenny and I were separated. My life was a disaster. And talk about self bereavement and shame. But in the process of walking backwards and sort of documenting all this through my podcast and being painfully honest, and a lot of people who listen don't like what I say, especially if they're part of the story. Um, but really, really coming to realize that sometimes we don't have a lot of control over those steps either, that sometimes we're on a path that can feel predetermined, and the steps lead us where they lead us. And, you know, it was like having Jack, am I supposed to have him or am I supposed to go through the process like, is the baby the reason, or is the process of having the baby the reason why the steps? Um, and that's a huge piece of life, I think.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, absolutely. It is. And I think that it's, like, I keep that watch in my desk as a reminder that every time I reach for a pen, every time reaching for like, lip gloss, every time I reach in to grab like, stamps, anything I look and I see that watch. And I think I could have tossed the $0.52. We often look at these little tiny things that happen and think, huh, that's not worthy of anything, or that step's not going to make a difference, or that step isn't going to actually make a change, right. And we underestimate the power of the million little steps, right?

Barb Higgins 

Oh yeah. Big time. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. Side note I came home and I showed it to my husband and I was like, thanks for my birthday present. And he started laughing and he's like, why did I give you so much? 

I had known you could do that with it. As for the next year, he gave me $0.25. Yeah, there you go. And I was like, what are you going to get this year? Yeah, yeah. It was like, no, 

that one's just going to go in my wallet. But in life, in health, in business, in everything, there is this idea and I, I am a big believer that it's because of social media, because of instant fast food, because of bank machines, because of just the way society is going. Right? Every single thing is so instantaneous. Every single thing is so quick, so fast, so easy these days. We don't have to take steps to get somewhere. People don't want to actually put in the hard work. People don't want to put the energy or the effort into it. 

Barb Higgins

And we're losing our ability to have executive functioning, which is the ability to organize your thoughts into actions step by step by step. Little kids learn it. You put ten five year olds together and they're bouncing off the walls. And then slowly they learn that first you put your shoes on, then you hang up your coat, then you get your snack ticket. Then you go to your desk and then you go to, you start to learn the steps that are required to function. 

Dawn Taylor

But we don't have that. 

Barb Higgins

We don't at all anymore. No. 

Dawn Taylor

And no one's willing to take the chance. I had someone of the day ask. They're like. Do you not age? And my husband's jokes that I have Benjamin Button and I'm just getting younger looking. And as I get older and I said, they're like, where 's your plastic surgeon? And I started laughing and I said, nobody. And they're like, what? And I was like, I hopefully get face cream on my face once or twice a week. Yeah, yeah. And they're like, no, no, no. But you do Botox, you do whatever. And I said, no. I said. But I'm really healthy. And they were like, what do you mean? And I said, I drink just water, coffee. I don't have juice, I don't have pop, I don't drink alcohol, I don't do any of those things. I'm sugar gluten free. I do pump and I do red light therapy and I do IV therapy and. I eat lots of anti-inflammatory stuff, and it was really funny because as I'm listing these things off, they're like, oh yeah, no, I'm good. I'll just get plastic surgery

Barb Higgins

Yeah. Oh, I'll just take ozempic and then I'll get skinny.

Dawn Taylor

Right? And I started laughing as you live. Yeah, I started laughing and I was like, you're hilarious. And they're like, what? And I said, I love it. You'd rather fix later than preventative maintenance now? Yeah. But that's our society, right? That's our society. So for anyone listening, I think one of the biggest things is literally those three steps though, right? Like one tiny piece of determination, no shame in one tiny action. Rinse and repeat. And maybe that's a really good way of looking at all of this, right? Like, maybe it's like one extra glass of water a day and that's where you're going to start. Or I have a friend who's a nutritionist and she talks about like, have something green at every meal, something I don't care if you eat like a leaf of lettuce, have something green at every meal. Right. That's it. Just that thing. 

Barb Higgins

Green Skittles do not count, right? Like you don't have M&Ms. I would have started years ago. 

Dawn Taylor

Do everything at 180 degrees overnight and do that. But it's like one tiny action at a time. But I often say to clients, you can't steer a parked car. It has to be moving. It has to be in motion, like do something, do something.

Barb Higgins

I think back to our theme of being judged and living in a judgy society. I also think people judge people they're jealous of, and I think a lot of the judgments I get around having a baby in my 50s is from people, men and women that had not been able to have kids. And so they're oh, so make a mockery of it and go ahead and show the world that you can have a baby at 57, like within the IVF community. I actually have had minimal judgment within the community, but I am unbelievably careful always to acknowledge and honor the mothers that do this. And it doesn't work. I am fucking lucky, I just am. I have a ridiculous body that I'm lucky I live in because it matches my personality, which is active and athletic and competitive. Um, you know, I'm 60, but I do not look or act 60. My day to day life is nothing like 90% of my 60 year old friends. Most of my friends are 20 years younger than me. Um, but I think sometimes our immediate judgment, like when I get judgy, I'm good now at stepping back and saying, okay, why am I so judgy about this? 99 times out of 100, it's something that I'm insecure about. My insecurity comes into play judgment wise. Like, I get a lot of judgment. Um, I have a handful of friends that are really extremely religious. Some are super Catholic and others are very, very, very sort of fundamentalist Christian. And anything with birth control and messing with the divine nature of conception and childbirth and all, is just considered outright sinful. And so I get all, you know, they're careful sometimes because I've lost a child as well. And so are their friends. But it's just utterly clear that they think I'm this horrifying sinner because I had the audacity to create a child in a test tube, you know, a petri dish and grow it that way. And it's like, okay, but it's still a child, like like, I definitely believe in God. So I feel like Jack has a soul just like every other child in the world. And he's a beautiful person that's supposed to be here and watching him. I know he's supposed to be here. My job is just to keep him as not fucked up as possible. So whatever he's supposed to do, he can do. That's how I feel about it. Like, okay, let me just make sure he's relatively normal. Um, so, I think sometimes it's people that have endeavored to do the three steps, all those tiny little steps and not met with success or not, how they feel successful. And so it's just easier to lay blame somewhere else. So go ahead, get mad at me..

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. I'm not mad at all I agree.

Barb Higgins

Not you. Just people in general. 

Dawn Taylor

And I think people are busy judging because of that. But also we have shame around it where we don't want people to judge us, so we're not willing to take the step. Yeah. Then once we get going, we're also like, but no, this is my path and now I can't get off of it because if I have to actually shift or pivot or move off of this path or change something that I'm doing, or adjust something I'm doing because this isn't working, our egos get involved. 

Barb Higgins

Egos function out of fear. Egos function, the fear of the anger level, not the level of love.

Dawn Taylor 

And so it is. It's looking even in business, in life, in marriage, in relationships and whatever it is, it's going, hey, what we're doing isn't working right. And it doesn't mean we suck or we're horrible people or we're failures or we're not enough or any of those things, but it's not working. So what is, what's working, what's not working? And how are we going to change it? How are we going to fix it? How are we going to adjust it. Yeah. And let's keep going. Let's keep going. And it's funny, I said something the other day to someone that I was a black sheep in my family in so many ways and not as like the bad girl or, I mean, I have tattoos, so I'm probably the bad girl, but. I was like, you know, I might be considered that, but I feel like the black sheep of my family often for so many of the life decisions I've made in so many of the things that I've done and the things that I've tried, like I've spent my entire life not feeling like I fit into the box of my relatives. And they said, yeah, me too. And I could not be more grateful to be a different color. And I laughed and I said, you know what? It's so true. Like, we could be a black sheep because we're the bad person, or we could be a black sheep because we think different, or we could be a black sheep because we are just different. And. I think that for anyone listening, if you are feeling super judged in an area of your life. Just keep going. Honestly, like, if it's not mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, relationally, financially harming you or anybody around you. Rock on. Just do it, right. Like we get judged for how often we move. We get judged for vehicles we've driven. We've get gotten judged for not fighting the world when they said that we couldn't have a baby, we get judged for the fact that we moved and left and opened a trauma healing center and came back. We've been judged for jobs we've taken. I get judged for my gray hair every day like we had judged for everything.

Barb Higgins

And I also feel, not to make this a sexist sort of thing, but, you know men father children in their 60s, 70s, even 80s, all the time. And no one, no one says a thing. I mean, nothing, you know, nothing. They maybe judge them for having a wife young enough to be his daughter. But you know that that's a parent that is going to need diapers at the same age I am, you know. But they don't, right? They don't get judged for being an old father. Um, and it's also how we look at women who age. I think that there's, we were at Disney and I was nursing Jack. This was like a year ago. And I'm sitting there nursing him, and I'm not shy about it. I mean, don't flash my boobs, but I'm, you know it's clear. I was nursing him and this group of women walked by and they were sneering at me, like, with this look of disgust. I didn't get it at first, like I wasn't. So I'm looking back. Like what? And, uh. And this one goes, that's disgusting. And I'm like, nursing a baby is disgusting. And she goes, no, someone your age trying to make it look like you’re nursing a baby. So she thought I was like, fake nursing. Like, I don't know what she thought. I was just like, okay, well, he's my child and he's hungry, but thank you. And it was, she was grossed out by me nursing my child. So, you know, if I looked in a mirror while I was nursing Jack, I might get grossed out, too, you know, like, oh, God. But I mean, it was, we don't also celebrate how women age, you know, actors and athletes that are male and their gray hair is sexy and their wrinkles are distinguished. And we acknowledge and honor their aging bodies. And women spend thousands of dollars to make it look like we aren't aging. Okay, well, you know, I'm 60, right?

Dawn Taylor

My husband's getting gray hair, and it's looking so distinguished and good. And like, people are commenting on it and how good it looks. And I had someone literally at a business meeting offer me $1,000 to dye my gray hair so it didn't look so ugly. And had a woman in a salon tell me that my husband must be cheating on me, because no man would want to be with someone with gray hair at my age. couldn't stop laughing, both of them. And I'm grateful that I also, like you, have no fucks to give when it comes to a lot of those things, because I was like, I love that my hair. And I'll never forget this woman in the salon. I was with my sister and I was like, I love that my hair caused such offense to her.

Barb Higgins

Yes, she's the one that's like that.

Dawn Taylor

I love that I hold this super power of gray hair.

Barb Higgins

And she's certainly never going to sleep with you,

Dawn Taylor

Like you and your gray hair. Wow. I wonder if her husband cheated on her by any chance, right or left for a younger woman.


Barb Higgins

Or that happened to your parents or something? Yeah, that's exactly it. So. But we do. We are. We live in a culture that scrutinizes women in a million ways. And I feel like it's that way. I just did a recent podcast episode on advertising between men and women, and insurance coverage between men and women, and the judgment in the moral high ground to which women endure and have to be held in very basic medical things and social things, and advertising is 9000 times as much as the standard men are held to. And in it, it's mind boggling to me sometimes, you know, like just the judgment that comes to women that doesn't come to men for the very same thing. And you know, like a vasectomy is immediately covered by health insurance, and a tubal ligation needs medical necessity and isn't always covered by insurance. It's the same procedure. Snip, snip. That's what that is. And men can snip. Don't even need a referral. I'd like a vasectomy. No problem. I would like a tubal ligation. Well, you need doctor's approval. It has to be medically necessary, and we'll only cover half. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, I'm part of it too, is like, why are we holding ourselves to the standard? And why are we, as women, so busy judging each other? 

Barb Higgins

Yes. Why don't we stop that? 

Dawn Taylor

It's not the men that are judging us.My husband has said that to me before. Where like, I was holding myself to an unrealistic expectation when it came to even, like how often I made dinner or what I was cooking or different things like that. And he's like, I don't have that expectation of you.

Barb Higgins

Yeah, like, where does that come from? We accept we accept these cultural norms. 

Dawn Taylor

He's like, you're torturing yourself, so stop it. I was like, oh yeah, we accept it.

Barb Higgins

We accept that we have to put up with it. We accept that. Oh, well, you know, that's life. Well, no, no it isn't. And there's a story about red ants and black ants in a jar, and they get along fine. And then someone shakes the jar, and then the ants start killing each other because each side assumes the other side created the problem. They don't know that it was an external force. I this is when I sound all wacky, but I do think sometimes that there are political agendas and social agendas that are created to pit us against each other. If the women are fighting each other, then nothing will get solved. Which is true. We're so if we're so busy fighting each other, then true social change can't happen because we need to be unified as women to do a lot of things. And I know that in my child loss journey, in my job loss journey, and in my having Jack journey, um, I've received very, very different and more intense scrutiny than Kenny. Yeah. Look at me. That's life. Wait a minute. You know.

Dawn Taylor

Barb. Thank you. Thank you for being so open to talking about this today, for not shying away from it, for having this conversation. I hope that for anybody and everyone who might be listening to this, take a step back and look at your life and where you are dimming your light, where you are holding yourself back, where you are making a decision to not step into your own and hold your space. Because of the fear of judgment, because someone is judging you. Because of all of those things. And no. Am I saying have a baby at 57? No, I think it's ridiculous, I said it. 

Barb Higgins

There are times,right? There are times I can't believe. I'm like, what was I thinking? You know what I'm saying?

Dawn Taylor

But maybe it's a really good day to grab $0.52 and see what you can do with it.

Barb Higgins

Yeah, I agree and see what happens. Yeah. And what got me Jack.

Dawn Taylor

And whether it's your health or what you can. You can curl up and die, right? Or you can do something with it, right? I always say the acronym for fear is like, if you can fuck everything and run or face everything and rise, and you get to choose which one you're going to use, that's right. You get to choose. So, Barb, thank you. Thank you for being here today. For anyone listening, I hope you heard something that hit home. I hope that you learned something from today's episode, but also maybe are going to drop a little bit of judgment on people around you that are doing something just a little bit different and outside of your comfort zone. Right? Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Tell your friends. Tell people about it. Please share. Leave reviews. You know all the regular podcast things that I'm supposed to say right now. Check out the Show Notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca for more information, but also for all the contact information for Barb, her podcast, and all of her stuff. If you want to hear more about her world and her journey, and subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, thank you again, Barb.

Barb Higgins

Thank you Dawn.