Dawn Taylor| 07/05/2024

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today. Oh my goodness. Okay, so you guys are gonna enjoy this episode so much. I get to talk to the phenomenally hilarious, funny. I don't even know how to describe him. Caleb Nelson. He is the founder of Naked Sunday Studios. Hosted the Naked Sunday podcast. You should go on his podcast. You have to be naked. No, I'm totally kidding. You don't. I didn't have to be naked. He's a performance coach. He helps impact driven entrepreneurs, business leaders overcome burnout. He is all about looking better naked inside and out. And he is just an incredible human being. And we've had so much fun hanging out off and on over the last few weeks. And today we're diving into “Are You In A Cult?” Yeah, that's right, we are. Before we get started, I just want to put a heads up that we're going to be talking about some religious stuff today. We're going to be talking about cults. We're diving into all of the things. But I hope you take the time to actually listen to this and to get to know Caleb, because he is just a really, really incredible guy. Welcome to the show, Caleb.

Caleb Nelson

Well, thank you for having me and getting me blushing right off the rib and we already laughing our asses off before we got on here. So I mean, let's just keep the ball rolling. Here we go, here we go. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. So, Caleb and I were having a conversation a while ago about how there's cults all around us. So if you don't know me in my personal life, I'm, like, weirdly obsessed with cults. Like, been to some crazy called headquarters, done some probably dangerous things, but we're just not going to talk about that because my husband might shoot me if he knows. But 

we were talking about cults and how we look at them as just like the big cults, right? The big name ones that we see on TV or the news or those sorts of things, but really they're all around us. And the reason why I got into this topic is you were raised in a cult. So tell us. And you live literally down the road from, like, Nexium headquarters, which is kind of wild. You’re just surrounded by these things, aren't you? 

Caleb Nelson

It seems so. Follow me. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. But wanted to dive into this and like, what is it like being raised in a cult and what is the mindset behind it and all of those things and how to know if we're in them? So tell us a little bit about your childhood and what that looked like for you.

Caleb Nelson 

Mhm. So I grew up in the Unification Church otherwise known as the Moonies. Um, they were really known for their mass weddings, it was, what, 70s and 80s? And my parents, my parents were in it. They had, were in one of these weddings. They were actually in the Guinness Book of World Records for the largest mass wedding. And they were married in Madison Square Garden alongside a few thousand other people. Um, and they also had arranged marriages. And when I talk arranged marriage, I'm like, this dude was like you and you person, like, you to go talk like that's going to happen. There's some other conditions and other stuff like that. Apparently that went on beyond that. And I was. I am considered like the second gen or second generation. So my parents are first generation and I was the spawn of then I was supposed to have followed suit with what they called the blessing or the matching, have the matching and then get the blessing. The matching is of course, being having your mate chosen for you. And then the blessing would be, you're getting married. Um, I'm sure it goes without saying. I did not follow that path. But that was, that was the kind of the overarching concept of what I think about when I look back, um, I should tell everybody this because I'm here at a place in my life I'm incredibly grateful for how I was brought up. Um, the ultimate things that I dealt with in my life were real talk, first world problems. Um, and I have an incredible relationship with my parents now and my siblings and all that. Um, but when I look back on it, this construct around an arranged marriage, when I really look back at the things I've struggled with in my life. I believe one of the greatest ways to receive love is in the form of a spouse. That decision was completely left. I was completely left out of that. That paradigm. My opinions, my choices, my wants, my needs, my individuality like I was left out of the discussion. So that's led to an interesting life of figuring out, like, who am I in all of this? How do I receive love? Where do I fit in all of this? And some constructs around a lot of subservience to things and issues with authority. Kind of classic stuff that comes from people who rebel from those types of things. I think my scenario was a little more unique in the sense that, you know, I still went to public school. Until I got to see a different way that life happened. It wasn't just like I was in some commune somewhere doing just those things, I wasn't. That was not how I grew up. Um, so I would go to, like, church on Sundays or things like that. Um, but it definitely had the classic rigid, dogmatic belief structures similar to what you think of like a very rigid, like, Catholic kind of. Yeah, upbringing, a lot of shame and guilt around like or just restriction around things like the opposite sex or no dating. No, no, no to those things were permitted. So, I was more or less functionally mute, at least the way I look at it from a socialization standpoint, I couldn't talk to people other than about, like, sports or school. I really didn't know how to talk to adults. God forbid I had to talk to the opposite sex. That was just not happening. And there was just such a fear and a misunderstanding of that, it was so foreign to me. Um, that was at least how I experienced things. Um, and as I've gone along, as you said before, I look back and I look at some of the things I've struggled with that moved into the fitness field and my career. I started to see the wrinkles of, well, this shows up. These constructs show up in everything and almost everywhere, from people's nutritional plans to how people's jobs to how they go about their marriages. Like we're all in these very rigid dogmas, these stigmatized structures that do mostly nothing other than to separate each other and to alter other people, and also in their inherently separate you, your individuality, from yourself. And there's a long intro to my thoughts around how I grew up. That was ultimately how I experienced it for myself.

Dawn Taylor 

Totally. So let's break it down just a little bit. For people that have never heard of the Moonies or the Unification Church, I'm sure the majority of people have seen, like, the images of the mass weddings and that sort of thing. What was the base of the beliefs? 

Caleb Nelson

Uh, so it is rooted or based in Christianity. But what was believed, and this is my recollection, is that Jesus was not supposed to die on the cross and instead was supposed to live on, have a family and show the world how to live. And the belief or the state. Yeah, I'll lean into that in a second. The belief or the stated element around this guy, Reverend Moon stated that he was the next coming of Christ, and that he went on and fulfilled the mission and liberated people and so on and so forth. Inherently, when I think about that from a logical standpoint, I look at how most people behave nowadays. I believe a lot of people behave like martyrs. And they look to follow that model like I'm supposed to be dying for things. And I think it's like, think of the classic mom who plays martyr. And it's hard not to like, hate on moms like,mom. Love you. And I get it. It's like, but I did all these things for you, and I sacrifice all these things for yourself. We have all these people living this way, but not a lot of people know how to live for their family. They don't know how to live or the next generation. Um, and why? I've seen some of that stuff. Why I think it's so important that we address some of this is that, I'm obviously, I spent a lot of time on things like, the health field and the wellness field. You see so many people destroy themselves. But are not realizing that what they're modeling as success for the next generation is merely how to destroy yourself, not how to live from abundance, and then teach that and generate that into the next generation. Um, so that was a framework that I've questioned a little bit. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it's wrong. And, you know, everybody has their religious beliefs. But that was something that just that slightly different perspective on that. Now, when I took it outside the context of the, the church or whatnot, I see that and go, well, there's a lot of, there is some merit to that statement, how people need to perhaps rethink the way they're existing in their life. Because if all like success is deemed dying for everybody else's sins, well, you're always playing martyr and you're not actually allowing other people to realize their potential. Um, so I think there is something around that. But all that to be said, I did also see the problems that come with some gurus, some dude saying I'm the next coming. Here's how things are kind of going out. I saw plenty of people living in poverty and not having to make. That kind of stuff just stripped lots of all the classic things, like weird things, all the classic stuff, like, here's this guy, why is he living so lavishly? And all these other people are living this way that I still remember. There's a couple events I remember going to, and for the record, this was part of me. Struggling with, dealing with my own stuff around abundance and receiving good things is that I saw this disparity. And there's this one event I still remember, like it was on the stage. And I think one of his kids was like singing or just like this whole thing, but it was just very the contrast was so powerful. And that has stuck with me like, well, this this doesn't seem right. Something seems off here. I feel like there's a misappropriation of this. Now, that's not to say people who are successful in their own way, like everybody should think. I believe in capitalism for a reason. You work and you do the extra thing and you provide more value. You should be rewarded for that. Um, but when it's under the guise of  “I am here to save you.” As opposed to I'm going to give you some tools for you to save yourself. It's a very different conversation because it's not putting people above the other. It's saying, “Hey, we're both humans. How can I support you in this?” Those are some things that really stuck out for me. And I could see the abuse of power. I could see how people would just give over their life savings to all this stuff. And then, you know, they're kind of left to their own devices. Um, and that's not everybody. I made plenty of great relationships through that. The flip side is I also saw the power of community, and that you can get a lot of people doing a lot of things. And they did some like people did some great things, like I saw them, my mother, incredibly charitable, incredibly giving, incredibly loving. And she has friends that do the same thing. It's just, I think that there's something that people don't understand, community, if things at the top are not sorted out. That guilt and shame that I was talking about, that othering if you are if you're not following the path, you're kicked out and like, screw you. There's that shunning element of that you feel like you're not. Like you don't belong anymore. So again, classic kind of stuff. 

Dawn Taylor

I don't say that's so much of why people join in the first place.  Right. Is this epidemic of loneliness and wanting to be part of community and wanting to be part of something, and we see it everywhere. So I'm sure you've heard of the BITE model. Sorry. Have you heard of this? 

Caleb Nelson

I have not.

Dawn Taylor

The BITE model and we'll link it in the show notes. But it's the BITE model of a theory. Authoritarian control. And it goes through like how to know if you're in a cult and how they go about it to like get you in. It's very, very interesting. And they go through a whole thing on like, it's behavior, information, thought and emotion. And it lists a bunch of things because it says, you know, like we're all part of things all the time that you could be like, oh my gosh, that's a cult. But other things you're like, no, no, that actually hits a few too many of these on this list. And it's very interesting, these lists, I'll send it to you. But like, behavior controls like regulate individual's physical reality dictate where or how and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates. When, how, and with whom the member has sex. Types of clothing and hairstyles. Regulates diet, manipulation and deprivation of sleep, financial exploitation, manipulation and or dependence. And it goes through a whole bunch and it gets into like some pretty harsh stuff. But information control, right? Deception, withholding information minimizing or discouraging access to non cult sources of information. Right. So like the Internet, TV, radios, books, articles, encouraging spying on each other. Thought control requires members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth. Might change your name or identity. Um, emotional control, which goes into manipulation and narrowing the range of feelings. Teaching emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger and doubt. Making people doubt themselves. Very very interesting list. And yeah, we're going to take it all in the show notes. If you want to go check this out and go find it for yourself. But when  it comes to that. What's interesting is, so for years I've studied cults. I've read books on cults. I've gone to cult headquarters. Like I went to the branch of the Davidians, rebuild compound in Texas, and was chased off with guns. Like, I've done some really, really crazy, stupid stuff around cults, but the thing for me is always comes back to at what point have we lost us? And let go of a piece of us to allow someone else to control it. Right where we actually stop being critical thinkers.  Right. So the mom who hands her kids over to like, someone to abuse them or marry their child at nine, ten, 11 years old. When you hear of cults that were like the, you know, drink something and poison everybody, like, where does that fundamental like, “Wait a second, this isn't okay.” 

kick in. And you see it all the time. And people in my life joke that I like. I'm too obsessed with cults. I see them everywhere around me where I'm like, “Oh no, no, that networking thing is a cult. Run for your life. That fitness program and how they're doing i, tthat has a way too many cult-like things about it.” But if you think about it, it is everywhere around us. Right? So when you're raised in that where you're, you know, taught how and this could even be a family like your family can be a cult in and of itself in the control that they have over you. Right? So when you look back at your childhood and your youth and obviously you've walked away from it and did not have an arranged marriage or any of those things, but in the conversation you and I had had. You would then went on to do, like, some fitness stuff that you were like, “Holy crap, this is also a cult.” Where have you now seen all of that stuff later in life?

Caleb Nelson

So, I'll give you this. We'll tap into what you just talked about. So. I found, I want to first hit on what you're talking about. Epidemic of loneliness. I think that's what ultimately brings people in. But I would go to that. Like, it's not just what I think loneliness. I talk about like a spiritual loneliness. I don't feel connected to something bigger than myself, which I'm like, you feel empty. You don't feel like you are enough. Which inherently is the problem. And when I think you join a cult with, like this, the more rigid and dogmatic I have seen a structure, it's the more I've realized that the person in power actually feels very much the same way. You can see it with the CEO, you could see it with a religious figure, you can see it with any one of those things. The more they feel empty on the inside, they're using this external perception of like, “I have a lot around me to fill that void.” And again, you can see that anywhere. You can see it in any structure. And that feeling of like, “I have strength because I have numbers makes it feel good.” But if you really, like, the second, you don't fit into the complete narrative, there's the problem. After high school, so I made my separation at 17. I made a whole big stink about it, and I left the thing and kind of started. 

Dawn Taylor

Can I ask, what did that look like for you? Because a lot of cults when you leave, even like, like Amish communities, things like that, like you leave, you are ostracized. You're shunned, like you hear all these stories. So what did that look like within the Moonies?

Caleb Nelson

The beauty of my situation was that I on the outside was living a fairly normal life. Most people nobody knew, like my friends in school, did not know. I had a couple friends that were in the church that also were like my close friends around me. But you know, on the surface nothing really changed other than like I just stopped going to church stuff. Now, I also knew I was probably, I subconsciously definitely could tell my father no longer bought into all the stuff. Um, and that was probably, I don't know, maybe I was ten, 11, 12 years old. I could just tell he stopped going to church stuff and whatever. And I've had also, in that a very powerful example of two people, my parents. I'm speaking of two people who think very differently about the world, have a common goal and a common purpose, and they could still have a successful and happy marriage. Each of them have uniquely told me that. So fast forward to when I'm 17, has all great stories that there was a girl and I wanted to date this girl. And you know what? I look back and like I should, I was like your model kid. I did great in school. I was an athlete. I didn't cause problems. I just did. And it was pretty easy for me. I could just check the boxes of your All-American white boy and, so you think like, oh, this guy wants to go date girls. And I probably must have thought this way. I wanted to be responsible. I wanted to be respectful. My parents, the eldest of four kids. I do have a deep appreciation for revering your elders and thinking bigger about “It's not just about me here.” So I still remember. I sat my parents down. Nothing had happened. Um, I was like, listen, there's this girl, I want to do this. And this is I want to talk to you about it before I made a decision, um, or before I was pursuing it. And so the effect of, like, there's going to be consequences. And it was really like, hey, I was cut off from the money that I was saving up and stuff. And they just ultimately, I know they just wanted to protect me, but there was an emotional, like arm's distance very quickly. I just didn't talk to them. Probably around three months. I still live there at home, like I wasn't living in a commune so, my personal experience, I didn't have that. There's plenty of other people got different experiences around that. Like, I think my parents both lived in a communal setting for quite some time, but in my experience, the gift I had was on the surface, they kind of just continue to live a normal life, but I just didn't have a real relationship with my family and I already still, and growing up. I felt this way for my entire life. I just don't feel like I'm kidding. I feel like I'm an outsider in every place I'm in all the time. Um. Yet I always desire community. Go figure. Why? It would be a great little cult follower if I agreed with what was going on at the top. 

Dawn Taylor

I was like, I can send you a list of cults if you need a new one to join. 

Caleb Nelson 

Sign me up for the new thing! So, my identity was a lot to strap to, like being an athlete at that time in my life. Um, I cared a lot about training and all those other types of things and so much to like, I won best body in high school, and after I talked about, like after I left the church, I started talking like I could talk about other things. And I won most chains like silly things. But like, symbolically, I look back like this kind of is a platform for the rest of my life, like wellness and then changing and evolving. But in college, I lost that sense of identity and did the class of college thing and kind of got out of shape. But then I found CrossFit my junior year and, you know, in many ways, CrossFit became the new little cult that I followed. Um, and with all things, it has trade offs and it has lots of things. But, um, we were pretty dogmatic about how we got about it. I bought in full bore. I found the sense of community. I found it wrapped around competition. I was good at it. I could get accolades, I could get prestige. I could like my version of of the American Dream. I was checking all these boxes and that's where I started my career. Um. But, you know, it got to this point where there was also like the food, there was like it was the way and it was like, you're all in or not. Um, but when I opened my first gym with my business partner. We. It was, um, so Albany, where we were the first place we ran that place, like a frat house. It was wild. Um, it was great for growth, but that area was definitely what I call more transient. You didn't have a lot of people like staying there. And then I opened my second, my first location with him in a neighboring town called Clifton Park. And that's more of a bedroom community the more families. And I started to notice there was this distinct difference in the people we were serving. Now, my background was more like my, I studied kinesiology in college and a lot more like rehab and mobility and that kind of stuff. So my perspective on how I approached even CrossFit and athletics in the first place was already different, but I was starting to notice the difference in what people cared about. And I could not have communicated to anybody then, but I was starting to feel this divide within myself of like, “Where am I going with my life? I don't really give a shit about the points on your scoreboard because of how much you lifted today. I really don't care.” I don't. And for that, like. I used to live and die by my programming and thought it was like, the most important. Like the way I thought about food was just like this narrow box and like, it has to be paleo or then it has to be zone. It has to be. I've tried all the crash diets. Um, but you could see the same thing. It was just a longing for that. And it was very powerful. And there was a lot of great things we did. Um, but I still remember when he and I had a split, and I realized that when I look back, it's because I was evolving into the next phase of my life. Unceremoniously. Mind you, it was really a dark time in my life, but opened the door to a lot. There was the same kind of rift, all these people that I thought I had connections with, I did not have connections with. That was - It was us versus them. It felt like a cold war for about a year, like the between the two gyms. It was just a weird time. Um, all of this to describe it. There was this rigid belief on, like, how does it have to be done? As opposed to here's some tools. They happen to be like fitness training tools. And there's some concepts around food and there's some other conversations where we were having, we were talking, we brought in some people about leadership and things like that. “Here's some tools.” No different than any other self-help personal development stuff that you will see out there, which I think a lot of people really struggle to hear that. No, like, this is stuff that is kind of universal. Go to almost any other program. They're going to have the bones of all the stuff you're talking about. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, totally.

Caleb Nelson

Religious things. So that's where you get, I started to see, like, there's this dogmatic thing. And don't get me wrong, I was still operating from scarcity. I turned into a bit of my own cult leader in my second gym. Because this is my way. Fuck everybody, I'm showing you all that I'm right. I want to be the man. Believe you me, I've had to pay a heavy price learning those lessons. Yeah, but there's a saying in, like, the health field, in the fitness field, trying to change somebody's diets. Like, trying to change their religion because of all those concepts we just talked about their diet, their lifestyle is wrapped up. And it's not just the food on the plate. There's a communal aspect. Think about family dinners. There's a culture that shows up on the old beliefs what's good food, bad food? How much? What's right, what's wrong? Did you come from a war-torn region? Did you have food scarcity? All those types of psychological things are wrapped up into that. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So much.

Caleb Nelson

This happened to be that version of a fitness called all this to also remind everybody I'm still friends with plenty of people on CrossFit and all those other stuff. And a friend of mine like, like is higher up in the CrossFit thing, but I no longer could be bought into that because it wasn't. It was more about the vehicle than it was about here's some tools. How do you want to use it? That was at least my expression and interpretation of how it was going down. But I see, like the gift in all of everything where I'm describing here is. I can see the trickle down effect to the people at the bottom of any organization, that being usually the clients or the staff. Yeah, because you have to just listen to like three sentences that they're saying and like how they talk about stuff. Is there an individual ownership? Do they think critically about the things or is like, is this the way and the only way? And like my friends always joke like, “Caleb, you got culty eyes. So like you're born to be a cult leader.” 

Dawn Taylor

That is so true, you do have culty eyes.

Caleb Nelson

You gotta make fun of it. Because you know what? It's right there. A born cult leader, apparently. So that was, I should say, that's actually been one of my biggest fears in life is like, once you know that these are tools and often you're talking about building influence and they're very powerful. How are you building community? Well, community is very important if you're going to build a business. Guess what you're trying to do. You're trying to get people to buy into some concepts. And then especially if it has to do with anything in the personal development space. Now you get talking about ethics and morals and identity and all that stuff. It's a fine line that everybody walks with in this. Um, and I share that because I realized where one of my greatest failures in the past was operating from scarcity, that I did not feel like I was enough, so that I quickly slipped into the same thing. And I think and I share that because people get that way about their politics. They get that way about their religion. They get that way about their food. They get that way there about their business. And everybody has the capacity to be that. And I did. And often it's done under the guise of, well, I'm just trying to help people. Oh, yeah. Not realizing the other damage that you're doing to other people in the process. And you can't make everybody happy. I'm not saying that. But the intention and the understanding and the introspection that comes around that is, I think that's the important thing that that entire soapbox rant led into. And I don't even know if I properly answered the original question, so I apologize if I missed that one.

Dawn Taylor

That’s okay. One of the things that kept popping up into my mind is also the fact that we don't. No one feels like they have an identity anymore. 

Caleb Nelson

Mhm. 

Dawn Taylor

And you and I talked about this on your podcast when you're like and like I had this conversation that day with someone where it was like, “So who are you?” And I was like, “ah, I'm scrappy and I'm a fighter and I'm sassy.” And they're like, “No, no, no, what do you do?” And I was like, “Sorry, I thought you asked who I am.” And they're like, that's a really different answer. And I said, well, I have spent a lot of years removing myself from the labels that were put on 

me. Right. And the labels that I put on myself. And so much of these, like so much of the struggle I see right now, is like, “But who am I and why am I here?” And I don't know those answers. And I honestly think that a big struggle is that we don't have an identity. Most people do not have an identity outside of external factors. They don't know who they are. They're not comfortable with themselves. So when somebody can give them an identity, it feels very safe. 

Caleb Nelson

Yeah, let's unpack that. So I stumbled across this term spiritual fitness not that long ago. And. lends itself exactly what you're talking about. When you think about spirituality from this lens, its identity and purpose, much like what you said, like, what am I doing with my life? But what am I grounded in? And just like you said, it's so convenient to fall into somebody else's label. Because you're like, oh, these are the expectations. This is society's expectations.

Dawn Taylor

They give you a set of guidelines and rules that you live your life by that makes you feel safe. 

Caleb Nelson

And of course the problem there is climb that ladder and then you realize it didn't scratch the whole itch like great, you won the game of being the best of this external thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh. There's always another level, another course, another point system.

Caleb Nelson

And you see people chasing that. I'm sure you've seen it like every coach is like, “I'm just cert chasing or I'm credential chasing.” Or, you know, whatever the thing is, and that's the crash diet lifestyle in and of itself is like, I keep jumping from one identity, one structure to the next, not taking a moment like they're all kind of the same thing. How do you integrate that? How do you integrate the real you into that? And I think the hard part is if I'm not an external label, I'm not this group, indexed group identity thing, then who am I? Well, one of the things that I've done with that and that was probably one of when the whole creation of Naked Sunday really happened, it was asking that question. I think that's a real spiritual awakening. Like, I'm tired of that. And it takes a lot of exhaustion to get there. Um, but to truly self-actualizee, you have to really say, like, “Who am I? And what do I care about? And what am I? What's the foundation of my soul?” And for me, one of the pillars of that, like, is core values. I believe if you define yourself by your core values, that's intrinsic definition. Let's take that one step further, though. I think most people go about defining core values quite poorly. 

Dawn Taylor

And I was going to say.

Caleb Nelson

Well, maybe you've had the same experience. I've done it more core values exercises than I care to recount. And there were nice. I feel good for a few minutes, but it always summed up like, here's a sheet of paper with a bunch of words on it that sound really nice, and they're all great 

Dawn Taylor

Or can't grab you yet.

Caleb Nelson

But inherently there's somebody else's words. And when I really investigated how I answered those exercises. I was always looking for words that inherently the social group I was a part of at that time would deem acceptable and would approve of me for sharing. Those are my core values, which makes sense when I say that out loud. Um, but same problem. I'm still finding a way to just look for other people for approval. 

Dawn Taylor

Still all external. 

Caleb Nelson

All external. So when I really got down to like, what? How did I solve this for myself? I created what I call it the anti value method and it starts with “What do I hate?” And sounds weird because all everything in my life is all love and peace, love and rock and roll. Like I like to be happy. I really don't hate anybody in my life. But this vehicle of hate is so powerful because I'm sure you've had this when you with your coaching clients like so what do you want? They will list off 15 different things that they don't want before they even closely approximate a concept. Narrowing in slightly, maybe possibly on what they do want. 

Dawn Taylor

Always.

Caleb Nelson

So of course, like it was like staring me in the face the whole time. I was like, somebody can tell you what they hate real fast. And that's because it's a survival mechanism. What is disgusting to me, what repels me, what makes me angry? It's making it angry real fast. Um, and if you leverage it properly, that's really powerful. So, my example is always these things that drive me nuts. Shitty table manners just drives me up the wall. People that don't hold the door say please and thank you. Little things like they are small, symbolic, neurotic things to me that say I don't respect - blah. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, people that are rude to servers or cashiers or that is one of my biggest, like, I have gone for coffee or lunch with someone and I'm like, “Oh, hell no.” Like, never seeing this person again. Won't work with them, won't give them my business, won't refer people to them. And I've had other people be like, that's a really weird standard that you're holding people to. And I was like, and that's okay. But I'm allowed to think that, and I'm allowed to judge based on that. If I want to give you my business. 

Caleb Nelson

1,000%. So, and I think that's what people struggle with is that it's scales. Like it could be some egregious thing. But fundamentally you often see this, the classic, uh, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. Now, that's not a universal thing. But hey, if you don't speak to this person this way. Yeah, like in generalities, it often works very clearly. But the powerful thing underneath, defining like a list of things you hate, you can find a common theme. And for me, underneath that, okay, it was disrespect. So my anti value was disrespect was the opposite of that respect. Oh, okay. Now, here was the funny thing. Once I learned that like, okay, my first core value is respect. I had to then go evaluate my life and say, where am I not respecting others? Where am I not respecting myself? That one illuminated a lot of things for me, namely because I learned that most people won't define their core values or spend the time to do it because they don't want to be held accountable to their own shit. Because once you say it, you're like, oh my God, no, I'm just, oh, I was not. I didn't take care of my health this week. I just, like, threw that thing to the side. I wasn't respecting the thing that I was supposed to be getting done. I just spent all my time complaining and bitching and moaning about this other person. Like, I am doing exactly what the other person is saying. I'm and I'm upset about in a different way, but it's the same thing. That's really hard. But I think the beautiful part about that is at a minimum, you start to get clarity on “Oh, this is what I care about, and this is the foundation upon which I stand.” And I can start with things like, I'm going to hold the door for somebody. I'm going to start with saying please and thank you to the waitstaff. I'm going to just, little things like that. And it's more, it's more an expression of your true, authentic character than it is about grandiose things. And I am, this thing. It's like, no, I show up this way, this is who I am, and I think of that as you, but you bringing that up, I think that that identity piece like, oh, that's, that's who I am, that's the foundation from which I live. That's the foundation from which I operate. Makes it a lot easier to go about your life and I'm sure you felt the same way, but once you become that, it's very obvious for you. You start telling me that I'm like. I understand exactly what she's talking about, those things like somebody being a dick to somebody like that and like, oh, it's like, why are they raining? Why are they raining on your parade? I'm like, you say that? I'm like, she's got standards. All right. Cool. Somebody like me, but like, I'm going to take one more step closer to her because you have thought about that. Because you have the standard. You become a magnet for that type of thinking, for that type of behavior. And if you like how you feel when you do those things, go figure. You're going to like how the other people operate because they do the same thing, or at least their intentions are coming from the same place. Go figure. The community you actually create resonates authentically with you, and you're very happy about what shows up in your life.

Dawn Taylor

My values is, one of the things that I, um, created that I do a lot with clients is this whole thing. I'm like figuring it out and like, what is your purpose? Why are you here? What is it you want to, what is the change you want to make in the world? To put it in cheesy wording, right. But then figuring out those values and then branding it, which then, like you said, like, it dictates so many of your decisions in life, but also who enters into your life so minor, do it different, give it away, be it all, do it on purpose and love even more. And there's things that are attached to that. But it's even like, give it away. And every time, even as a company, like I had a meeting with my accountant yesterday going over my corporate year end and she's like,”Oh, do you have any donations this last year?” And I was like, “Oh yeah. And I pulled this like a stack of receipts.” Right. And she just shakes her head and starts laughing. And then I'm like, give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away. Now you got to give it to a stranger, right? Because that's jokingly what we do even in the office in our marriage when we give things away. But that's so tied into my values of who I am as a person, who I am as a business owner, who I am as a wife, and as a friend. Right. And I think people really need to dig in and do that work to figure that out for themselves. But going back to this identity piece. I honestly think one of the reasons why people are so terrified to figure these things out is because then it actually holds them responsible. And when we can just follow somebody else and leads be led by somebody else, then we can blame them for our failings. I remember being part of a networking group, and anyone listening that knows I won't name them because I'm sure I'd get in trouble. But they're worldwide and very popular, and I was part of this networking group for about five years. And, you know, it was great at the beginning. It was great for, like, meeting people and meeting other business owners and doing all of those things. Then it was like, oh, but now you have to do training and now you have to do weekly training, and now you have to have continuing education units. And I was like, look, I do schooling constantly. I'm reading constantly. Like, I don't want to do your stupid program with your, like, leader. And then I'd get in trouble and I get written up for saying no. And I was like, “Oh, this is a cult.” And then it's like, no, no, no, you're going to volunteer for stuff. And we're going to do more training and more training and more training, and they're tracking everything. And I was like, “No, this is just kindergarten for business owners. Right.” And it was this moment of, I'll never forget the day I was talking to this woman. She'd owned a business very successfully for a lot of years, and at this point, she had volunteered for so many higher up things within this networking group. Her business went under. Yeah, under the guise that she was like, no, but this is building my business and this is bringing me clients and this is. And I'm like, “No, no, no, all your hours are going into volunteering for somebody else's for profit business. Like, do you realize that?” And I just remember sitting there and thinking, “Holy cow!” Like, at what point are you looking at your books and going, no, no, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay that my business is going under. But if I volunteer five more hours, maybe I'll get another client. If I go to one more networking event, maybe I'll find some more clients. And it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And every time I see it in a coach where it's like, “No, you got to sign up. Just one more, one more, one more workshop, one more thing, one more, one more, one more.” And I'm like, “No, no, no, I want to help you. I want to teach you the tools. And then I'm going to punt your ass out of the nest, and I'm going to be here to catch you if you fall. And I'm always here if you need anything, but, like, I'm not your cult leader. I don't want to create a codependent relationship.” Right. But at the same time, I have to own. If I fail, same as I own. If I succeed. And I think that's a big piece of it. I think that people are just desperately needing something. I talk to people all the time that have like, left that networking group. We're so happy to get away from the toxicity in the drama and all the garbage. We went with it and they're like, yeah, I think I'm going to go back. And it's like, because you don't trust yourself to be a business owner on your own. Because you don't trust yourself to be able to build relationships outside of someone telling you who to talk to, who to have coffee with, who to meet with, who to refer to. Because we are so uncomfortable in that we need a label. We need a label of what we do, who we are, who we hang out with, what our priorities are. And that, it breaks my heart. It honestly breaks my heart for people

Caleb Nelson

Well, first and foremost, you get bonus points for Red Hot Chili Peppers references. I'm a big fan, so bonus. Sign me more up with you. Let's go. 

Dawn Taylor 

I have a program. No, just kidding, I love that, I have a program. 

Caleb Nelson

That was really good. That was really good. 

Dawn Taylor

No, but yeah, I do, I sing that all the time. Every time I give money away or like I write a check for something like, I was doing another donation or something this morning and I'm like, give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away now like, but it's branded and it's memorable and I'll never forget my value because I get to sing it every time.

Caleb Nelson 

1,000%. And it also tells a story, which ultimately that's what people remember. I’m taking a wild guess and knowing which networking group, but they're all kind of the same thing. There's the same shtick. And I've actually, I'm loving that you said it like it's kindergarten, but like, I was like, it's networking for beginners. Like there is value to having a structure. Most people don't know. It's the “Hey, this is the only way.” And it's pitched that way. And I find that is scarcity based selling. Because if it's that good, somebody staying around because it's already making them the money, like almost immediately it would make them the money because you're that good. You'll follow through. And I think something that's important we're talking about here, and I think it's important to be held more in this coaching space. Is more, more or less. Especially in podcasts. Are we empowering prospects with the tools to improve their BS detector? Something like saying, my job is to put myself out of a job, like I want to kick you out the nest because that was the point. If we're creating the co-dependent relationship or if you become the crutch. That's the problem. That's that whole martyrdom thing that we were talking about before. It's just a whole, it's a new thing. And I think a lot of people don't understand how problematic that becomes, not even just for the client, but actually for the coach or the business owner. As somebody who operated from that for a while, you start to realize now you have all these people that are so dependent on you to make any decision. It's exhausting. It's so tiresome. And then you start to become resentful but not realizing, wait, you created that relationship in the first place because you operated from that, and it's usually, oh, I needed to make money or need to do it. So you pitch the scarcity based solution. Overpromise and underdeliver. 

Dawn Taylor

Of course, afford to not work with me. That's my favorite line from the coaches. 

Caleb Nelson 

Yeah. Yeah, you hear that stuff, you know, and I'm sure you get the same, like, the best clients are the ones that are like, yeah, I get it. And I didn't have to do a wind up for a sales pitch. It's like, and I'd love to actually get your take on this. I feel like just mostly coaching in general, like in its most basic sense, is you're paying for a relationship. You happen to be the person that in some way, shape or form approximates the goal that I'm after. I appreciate the way you talk about it, and I'm willing to go on this journey, but you're putting it back on me like you're basically you're just going to hold up a mirror for me and that's it. It's really not that much more magical than that. The magic is the fact that they go on the journey with you, which that doesn't always, like, people are afraid of doing that as opposed to like, I got this 18 step program and I'm just like, really? Or I'm just a human being. And maybe we mostly just need to talk this thing through. And I'm not some codependent child, and I can think for myself as an adult. And if you treat somebody like a child as opposed to like, you're an adult human being. That perhaps just feels overwhelmed. And if we can help settle things down a little bit, ask them good questions. Like you, you know the answer that I think that that's such a tragic thing where you see it, especially in the coaching space, like basically telling your client they don't know, they don't know themselves. Well, you're only going to reinforce that behavior and the way you treat them, because if that's what you believe as opposed to they they have all the tools. Their life circumstances and ironically, their own success has got them to a place that they feel so overwhelmed that they're forgetting that the basics worked for them. Their true essence, their true beingness, their true identity isn't shining through. But when they were just only having to work on just being themselves, that's when all that's when the initial success started to happen. They just lost it along the way. I think that's just such a different energy about that, whether it's building a business or losing some weight or having a better marriage, whatever it is, it's the same construct that it just helps. And I appreciate having somebody who's of sound mind and body or whatever it is that's going to hold some space for me. It doesn't have to be much more magical than that, but that is very magical that somebody is willing to be in a meaningful relationship with you and allow you permission to be yourself, as opposed to trying to be your next cult leader, be your next guru, and be like, “I'm going to tell you how to live.”

Dawn Taylor

I'm here, and I'll send you an email about your new wardrobe is with links to my Amazon account, right? 

Caleb Nelson

I haven't seen that exactly done yet, but I'm sure it's out there. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's out there. But yeah, it's funny you said that. One of the things that my clients and I mean my business card says ass kicker hope giver on it. And I had a guy in here yesterday and he contacted me. Like right around Christmas. I think it was like Christmas Day and he needed some support or something. Can I get a session with you right away? Had no idea who he was. Had never had a conversation with them. He's like someone said the old “Challenge me.” And I said, okay. Because, I mean, I let him have January 1st. I was like, why not? I'll be up here like, it's fine. I can walk downstairs and work. I challenged him because that's what he needed. That's what he asked for, right? He needed someone to devil's advocate everything because he's like, I am so stuck in my own way of thinking. I need someone to challenge me on it. 

Right? Well, last week he randomly reached out again and he's like, ah, my brain is stuck on some things. I need you to challenge me again. And it was so cute because as we were leaving, he made the comment and he's like, I like that you don't just sit there and let me talk and you make me stop and think. And even when I'm like, I don't like what you're saying. You're like, I know. Which is probably why you need to hear it. He's like, but you don't tell me what to do. And I said, well, no. I'm like, no, that's not my job. My job isn't to tell you what to do. I can give you some ideas and I can guide, like, help get you to the point where it's like, “Okay, here's our action plan of what you need to do.” But you still have to do it, and you have to get to the point where you know that that's what you need to do, right? And yeah, I've met enough people now where I'm like, oh, so you do this to heal yourself in your own sessions with your own people? Which I'm sure I'll piss somebody off and I'm going to get a nasty email. Send it to hello@thetaylorway.ca. I think that that's a big piece of it. And it's also like this constant desire for external validation that you are doing okay, that you are enough, that you are worthy of this life, that you are worthy of all those things. Right. So you create that, you create those systems.  You create those processes, those procedures within your business to be like, no, you need 

me. And that's, I think that people need to like, if I was to give one word of advice to anyone listening to this, that's like, huh? Am I in a cult, right? I would check. I mean, go to the BITE model, check the list and see how many items you're having to deal with. But also, are you consistently trying to measure up to a standard someone else has set for you? Are these your expectations of yourself or are they someone else's? Right. What is their intention behind it? And also what is your intention behind your actions? If your intention behind your actions is to please them, is to get to a higher level, is to make them like you, to make them love you, to feel like you're part of a community, to feel like you're accepted somewhere. I think you need to take a step back. Right, but also what they're telling you, what they're teaching you, what they're preaching at you, whatever wording you want to use on that. Is it something that's causing harm in your life, in your relationships? 

The amount of people that I know that have ended up divorced, have ended up leaving families, have ended up walking away from relationships because that's what their guru tells them to do. When really, they're not that unhappy. They've been convinced they're that unhappy. 

Caleb Nelson

Yeah, I resonate with everything you just said, and I agree, I've seen that. And the feeling or the thought that came to mind. Like from a difficulty standpoint, if somebody feels this chronic anxiety, I think that's the thing that one, if that's all you're feeling all the time, every time you think about the stuff you got to do, quote unquote, right, I have to do this laundry list of whatever. That is, and sometimes you're creating it for yourself too. It's not everybody else's fault. Sometimes you - why did you create this laundry list of stuff that you think you're supposed to have to do to be successful? Okay, yeah, maybe it's actually you're from your childhood and your mom told you you had to live this way, or your dad or whatever, and you just kept. You kept shuffling that stuff forward into your life. 

Dawn Taylor

Totally.

Caleb Nelson

And so many people just get themselves so damn busy doing everybody else's stuff, they forget to, like, live out their dream. Of course, they don't feel good about themselves. Of course they've forgotten. Because you are, as you said before, with the thing. Like you're volunteering all your time for somebody else's dream. Now, if it genuinely is your dream, and it really does fill your cup and it's exactly what you want. Knock yourself out. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. 

Caleb Nelson

But there's a different sense of ownership in that. And you can acknowledge. I see it, this is the best way for me to do it. And I enjoy,  like, that's different. The same way I would say. You know, not everybody's meant to own a business, but everybody can operate from an entrepreneurial mindset. If you're taking ownership of all the consequences, the trade offs, the benefits, that's great. Some people like being part of an organization and saying, like this job and this role within this space that's best suited for me because I know myself. That's awesome. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's the ownership and the understanding. And it's the same way of saying. You know, some people say everybody needs a coach and maybe but, like, some people might say, like as opposed to saying, “I need a coach.” Just saying “I know that I operate best when I have somebody who holds space for me. I just know that about myself and I get through problems faster and that's worth it to me.” It's a different way of approaching, I suppose. “I need somebody to, like, help me through, like I can't.” And they're just, like, crippled with their own stuff. You're probably going to go seeking a very short term solution, and you're going to get your. Don't be surprised when the person that shows up at your door sells you some snake oil and like, start the process all over again. There's just a difference in that, I think. I actually be very curious about your take on this. I think everybody eventually grows through that cycle. Everybody's got their own level of pain, of feeling like they're subservient to everything else. I think there's a new fear, though, when you start to really want to sit with “Who am I?” question of who do I really trust now? Who do I really let into my life? I'm so used to being burned by all these false gods. I find value in community. I find value in connection. I don't know where to start. I just don't trust that. I guess kind of what I'm bringing it up is going. I think especially some of the things you said about this, help somebody better understand how do you make a better choice when you are going out and seeking support or guidance or communal connection or any of those things?  Because, like, I feel like that's when you're you're. Your trust in the greater good ultimately comes to its lowest low. 

Dawn Taylor

100%, but that's where. But that's where. When it's all external, you're setting everybody else up around you for failure and yourself up for disappointment. It makes sense, right? When everything out there is external, it's no different than having expectations of somebody. And then they fail them and you're like, what? And you're so angry and it's like, no, you put an expectation on someone that they didn't agree to meet. And you set them up for failure the minute you put that on them. And I think that's where it comes back to, so I laugh because, like I met you. In the funniest way ever. Our mutual friend Denise, who's maybe listening to this. Hey, Denise. I went to a different culty networking group that I refuse to go to because they're so culty and they drive me insane. And if you're not part of it, you're dead to them. Like, they're so rigid that way. And everyone will tell you like it's a one year buy in, and then people will start referring to you and want to get to know you. And I'm like, oh good grief, what is this? I'd been invited by someone who wanted to talk, and he had a client in the room that wanted me to come be part of it and give a feel on a few people. I was like, whatever. Fine. Three hours in. Then I was like, I want to stab myself in the face with a fork. Like, I can't do this. Like I can't listen to one more sales pitch. I can't listen to one more shaming from the stage like I actually can't. Like I'm crawling into my skin. So I look to my friend I was with and I was like, I know she's like what? I was like, I can't like, this is actually killing me. Like, no, I can or I'm going to get myself into trouble and say something I shouldn't to someone. I know this about myself. So, I got up and I was, like, walking out right after lunch and this thing was going to, like, 5:00. And I'm walking out and someone chases me down to introduce me to someone. And it was Denise. And we start. We're like, oh, hey, how are you? Whatever. And I was like, I gotta get out of here. I apologize right now because nothing I say is going to be appropriate, but like, I gotta fucking get out of here, like, right now. And she starts laughing and she's like, oh my word, thank you, me too. And I was 

like, that's a kindred spirit right there, right? I think it's about finding people again, going back to the values, right. Finding people that think outside the box, finding people that don't commit hardcore to something, finding people that like we joke with in my company that we call it a no toes policy. Where it's like nobody is stepping on anybody else's toes. So if someone needs to step in and take something over or they can do a better job, amazing. No toes. So no one's ever offended. Nobody's ever hurt. No one's ever getting mad at anyone over that. And I think we need to do that in friendships and in business. Right? It's like, hey, if I want to go to 45 networking groups, nobody's going to be like, oh, you go to another one other than this one, right? If I want to have more friends, nobody's jealous because the people you connect with go “ Hey! I like that you get yourself and you know yourself and you're confident in who you are, what you are, what you provide.” You know. And that is where there's such beauty in that. And I think that's where you really have to start. And so for myself, my inner circle might be really small, but there are no toes. Nobody ever is jealous because I hang out with one person more than somebody else, or I didn't call them for too long or whatever. Like they're, there's no toes.  It's not an issue and I never have to worry about it. But because of that, I know I'm not constantly trying to be someone for someone. And that's when you find yourself having to chameleon, find yourself having to change who you are, what you wear, how you show up, what you eat just to fit in. Holy red flag.

Caleb Nelson 

I like that thing you just brought up about the networking thing. I remember that it's common, a lot of networking groups where you're like, you're fitting like this, you know, specific category in our group. Like, what if they're like and then you're supposed to refer to that person. I'm using this as a general concept, obviously, but I always found that to be, like, did anybody go and check if they're really good at what they do or didn't? Did we really check on their core values? 

Dawn Taylor

Not at all. 

Caleb Nelson

Are they really checking in on my stuff? Like, this is a two way street and I see it the same way as. It's almost like being in the States. Like, and I went onto this with Denise on my podcast. Like insurance. Entering the treatment room with a doctor and a and a and a patient. Like when you let, you're letting some third party dictate what's going on between them, like a relationship is an interest between those two people. Like, let them sort it out. Sometimes you need somebody to, like, mediate, but not to, like, solve the problem. That's different. 

Dawn Taylor

Kindergarten for networking. 

Caleb Nelson

You can't. And again it's valuable because you just, in the beginning you don't know what you don't know. And you need to do the rest and you need to do stuff. And that's why I think, all these things have value. Every system has value because it gives you some order and some structure and some focus. Until it no longer fits that. And I think that's what most people lose, like, I still follow many of the general principles during my CrossFit days. Some general things, certain foods I learned. 

Dawn Taylor 

Not all consuming. I think that's where it becomes an issue. When it's all consuming, when it's like, no, no, no, I'm going to take 14 of your courses and I'm going to spend eight hours a day doing this and it's going to harm my relationships. Oh, and I'm going to go to every single retreat, and I'm going to read all your books, and I'm going to listen to your podcast, and I'm going to do all these things, and I'm going to wear your clothes, and I'm going to have the same haircut as you. And it becomes us trying to become the person, not learn from the person. 

Caleb Nelson

It's such a different approach that like what we're talking about the other way is that saying, here's some tools. Use this. Do with it what you want. Like this is what I've learned. There's a casualness by that. And I think. For anybody listening like that. If you're ever hearing stuff and the person's like, listen, I'm good either way. If it makes you happy, cool. If it doesn't work for you. Also cool. That's usually a great sign. Like, okay, maybe you can like maybe the next step is appropriate and that person is not. You know, I joke a lot about stuff with sales and things like that. It's like, I'm not going to propose to you on the first date. Go figure. Range marriage kind of background holds some water there for me. Like we're not we're not going all in right off the ribs. Like you said before like “Oh, my god. I'm going to give you my first born and like my life savings.” Because that's buy in for this. And that works for some people. But there's also the survivorship bias, like look at this one person who went from rags to riches doing this path, not talking about the 90% that crashed and burned and their success rate was not great. And you see that in online coaching space a lot all the time. But it's again, not that the system is wrong mathematically. It was like, but you didn't think about who exactly is the person you're going on the journey with. Do they really align with everything you say? And are you really learning how to hold space? And much like you said before, is this a person who's doing this to solve their own problem? Or they hold space for you while you're figuring it out for yourself. That intention is incredibly powerful, and it's very subtle to shift. But if you're not aware of it, 3 to 6, 12 months, maybe a few years down the line, it's going to be, there's going to be a sharp ending to that and it's going to be pretty uncomfortable. So, I was loving everything you were saying about that, because I think it's so important for people to have that type of awareness around the language that surrounds it. 

Dawn Taylor

I have people that, and, this is a recommendation I always make to people when I do a consultation with someone and I'm like, look, I might not be the right fit. I won't let people sign up right away. I'm like, no, no, no, you need to sleep on this. You need to think about this. You need to make sure you can afford it. And they're like, really? And I'm like, 

yes, yes, you need to take a minute. I will make you take a minute. But. I will talk to people and I'm like, “Hey, if you are interviewing other coaches, if you are interviewing other people to help with some of these things, can you do me a favor?” And they're like, “What?” “Ask them the hardest thing that they've ever overcome. What is the greatest trauma that they've overcome and how did they do it?” And they're like, “What do you mean?” And I said, “If they can answer that question and you're not okay with the answer, probably not the right fit.” 

Because most people are coming to me for trauma work, right? And even in the business consulting side of my business, where I'll help business owners build things out, I'm like. 

Just ask to see someone's financial statements. Ask to see some of their systems, processes and procedures. They're like, really? And I'm like, well, yeah, because if they haven't been there, how are they going to guide you there? The business coach whose business is failing?

I get a lot of flack. I get a lot of flack for this because I'll say this to people. I've had people try to sell and I'm like, cool, how much are you making a year? They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, if you haven't leveled up from where I am, why am I hiring you to get me there? Because you obviously don't know how to do it. Sorry. I'm hiring you to help me with staff when you've never actually had a staff member. I don't care what you read in a book. I don't care what you did in a course, I need to know that you've actually lived it and you've walked your walk. 

Caleb Nelson

There's a different level of “I know what it feels like.” It's not what I know. Like you said before, you can read it in a book or you can have a piece of paper on the wall if you don't know what it feels like. There's a whole different, when you just brought up staff. That's a burden that people don't think about. If you don't know what it feels like, rent's coming due and you got people and mouths to feed. And it's not just them. They got kids or they got family or whatever. And you're like, oh, how do I make these decisions? And you're like, you never sat with that, right? 

Dawn Taylor

The added stress. I was like, don't you tell me how to manage my team when you haven't done the Thursday night shit. I have payroll in the morning and I don't know how I'm going to pay them. Up until you see. But when you've had like I've had staff, I've had a huge payroll, I've done those things right. So I'm like, I know that feeling. I know the responsibility of the weight of that on your shoulders. And how that can cause you struggles in your own business, right? Like. 

So yeah, really make sure that you know what you're getting when you hire someone or when you join something, or you're part of a community or whatever it is, pay attention to that. What is your intention with being there and what is their intention with setting it up?

Caleb Nelson

You know what I really liked about what you said to that? I think it really sticks out for me is that you're not in a rush to take them on. And I think that is where, you know, many people think sale is a four letter word. But that's only if you don't go about it ethically. If you're in a rush and you're desperate to take somebody on why you're desperate, like, are you not even competent? What you got to do? You got to sell them into the, like, all this stuff. If you're not willing to let them take a week. Not to mention, you know, let's think of the thing beyond that, their buyer's remorse is a real thing. If they're chill and they come in not like when they make a decision, they get really high internally. And then the next day, if there's a big drop off, that's a problem. If they come in and they lay down the money and it and they feel calm and cool the entire time, there's not a big buyer's remorse. They feel confident that like there's a there's a I feel hopeful. I'm not in a rush. I don't like it's and not only that.I feel like it. It sets the tone for how the entire relationship is going to be. My emotions are not going to be throttle all the time. When I go to this person, I actually calm down and I feel calm the next day. Well, if that's how you want to feel in your life, which go figure. I would recommend to a lot of people because you make better decisions. It's probably how you want to do it. I wanted to make sure we highlighted what I heard there because I thought that that was. I think that that was really important for people to hear that if somebody is trying to sell you the moon and then, you know, you should take out this credit card right now and they can sign over your house and all this stuff to pay for this program, like this one time. You know what? 

Dawn Taylor

There's only eight spots. There's only one left. Guys, this is just sleazy sales. And we 

could talk about this all day. And you and I both know that. If people want to know more about Caleb, if people want to know more about any of this stuff, check out our show notes. Please follow him. And also, I'll be posting when my episode with him comes out where we deep dive into a whole different topic and really, really oh man, it's a good one. I'm just going to put that out there. We had an incredible conversation, including the fact that I hate the words “hold space for somebody” and what the meaning is behind that. 

Caleb Nelson

And I use it a couple times a day 

Dawn Taylor

If you can see his face right now. Right. But we dive into stuff, we dive into stuff, and our trauma really shows up in our lives. So thank you. Caleb, thank you so much for the time today for joining me today. I hope it's something that you heard really hits home. Um, if you're in a cult, please leave. Please, please leave. Contact either of us. We will help guide you out of it and how to fix the chaos after, but also join us in two weeks for another amazing topic, check out the show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca. For more information and for all the contact information on how to find Caleb and his culty eyes, and subscribe now on Apple, Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you again, Caleb, for being here. 

Caleb Nelson

Thank you.